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Memorizing lists of "phrases" rather ... | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5946 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes  Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 33 of 65 13 November 2011 at 10:22am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Agreed, everyone should do whatever works for them. However, what we propose to others - and what we put into practice as teachers - should be what is most effective for the most people. That doesn't just mean what gets people giving certain right answers, but what gets people to give the right answers for the right reasons. In many cases, phrase-based learning leads to incorrect generalisations because people tend to try to generalise and translate even when teachers tell them not to. This also leads to people getting fixated on certain meanings. Yes, there are individuals who don't seem to do this (and you personally would appear to be one of them) but you can't identify them in advance and to give advice that relies on this skill without explicitly discussing the skills required is dangerous.
That's not what you said. I agree that you have to learn phrases. I do not agree that the phrase is the only fundamental unit of meaning -- and that is what you said. If you don't mean it, don't say it. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 34 of 65 13 November 2011 at 4:17pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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For quite a long time now, Cainntear--and to a lesser extent Iversen--and I have been having this running argument over this question of the effectiveness of learning so-called component word or learning phrases. Sometimes I wonder if we have the same goals. Let me clarify my perspective.
My goal is to improve my speaking ability, especially conversational proficiency in the target language. This means (for me) four things: 1. Fluency of speech 2. Good phonology 3. Grammatical accuracy 4. Appropriate choice of words and especially idiomatic expressions This is a lot to master. And in the course of a conversation I only have a fraction of a second to muster all my thoughts and linguistic skills into utterances that make sense. My reactions have to be automatic and immediate. If I have to think (linguistically speaking) about what I'm going to say, it will be too late. When someone asks me a question in Spanish, assuming that I understand the question correctly, I don't have much time to start thinking about what pronoun to use, how to conjugate the verb (is that a stem-changing verb?), where to put the relative pronouns and then what form of the direct object pronouns to use. Basically, what I want is to spontaneously come up with an utterance that is something that my interlocutor will decode as a typical or possible answer to what was said earlier. This is exactly what native speakers do, and this is what I intend to emulate. When I say that the phrase is the basic unit of meaning--and it may be a bit of an exaggeration--what I'm saying is that we speak in phrases most of the time and that the meaning that we are trying to convey is in the sum of what we say. Why is learning to speak a language so difficult for adults? If it were as simple as learning a bunch of words, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The real problem is how to put things together spontaneously and correctly. What happens all too often, as most of us know only very well, is that it takes years before we can arrive at a level where we feel comfortable in the language and no longer hesitate or stutter in the language. The idea of emphasizing the learning of entire phrases--and for heavens sake, no one is saying do not learn individual words--is based on a simple premise: since you will be speaking in phrases, learn in phrases. Obviously, there is more to it than just a pithy statement. Since the big challenge in speaking a language is how to rapidly put things together in the right order, by repetitiously learning entire sequences you will spontaneously a) practice the phonology of entire phrases; b) drill grammatical sequences that you will be using time and time again; and c) acquire a unit of interaction that you can use quickly. Let's look at a concrete example. Just the other day I remarked the following phrase in Spanish and decided to put it on one of my flashcards: El caso es que su papá le prometió algo y después le salió con que tuvo que hacer una cosa distinta. (The story is that her dad promised her something and then said that he had to do something else.) I practiced repeating this example at least 25 times. I really like this phrase because it illustrates so well a variety of the stylistic features of idiomatic Spanish. I would not have said this spontaneously. As I repeat this while looking at my flashcard, I decompose it. I think of how I could take it apart and reconstruct it with some variations. Instead of El caso es maybe I could use Resultó. Instead of una cosa distinta I could use otra cosa. In the meantime I have something that I can put to good use right away. Some people will say that that example is a specific example and that I am just parroting some set phrase and will not be able to say something really new. This is rubbish. As I have tried to demonstrate, this example is in fact only a manifestation of a whole series of underlying grammatical (and phonological) constructions. This is why phrase-based learning is such an effective strategy. And please, do not believe that it is the only strategy and that individual words are not important. Edited by s_allard on 13 November 2011 at 4:19pm 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6485 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 35 of 65 13 November 2011 at 4:42pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
As long as you are advocating learning words and grammar in addition to sentences than we're on the same page. The op sounds like he's trying to kill 2 or more birds with one stone, which I believe is inefficient. So let me ask you the obvious question - how many sentences do you think a person needs to learn to get to B1? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| amethyst32 Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5584 days ago 118 posts - 198 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, French | Message 36 of 65 13 November 2011 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
It's a good example. I picked up the idea of learning phrases instead of words from the Spanish Only blog when I was at an advanced beginner stage and I think it probably made the biggest impact on speeding up my learning curve than any other single thing I did. My view is that there aren't many short-cuts out there in language learning, but this *is* one if it's used properly (i.e., in the way described in the part of your post that I quoted). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5946 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 37 of 65 13 November 2011 at 5:25pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Everyone's goals.
I agree with all of that.
The problem is that you have to be able to use the components of that phrase in different constructions too. Your example highlights one of the dangers of the phrase-based approach:
The meaning of "salir" isn't "say", it's "leave/exit". Plenty of languages use some variation of this. In slightly older forms of English, you'll see "ejaculate" (snigger) used in this way. In fact, even the ex- of "express" means out. But English has an even closer equivalent: "come out with". So you can build towards the meaning of the phrase additively. Step 1: "con" is "with". Step 2: "salir" means "to leave", or "to exit". Spanish speakers don't normally make a difference between "coming out" and "going out", they usually just "salir". Step 3: How would you say "come out with"? Now, while in English we can only "come out with something" (ie use a verb), in Spanish you can use it in most places where you would use "talk"/"hablar". This way the student explicitly understands the individual meaning of the constituent words and the additional meaning given by the idiom used to link the words. It also means that the learner is more capable of understanding a phrase like Isabel salió con Juan, because they will be more capable of looking beyond the phrase.
But if your starting point is phrases, then you end up having to learn subtractively. In a complex idiomatic construction, it is very difficult to ascribe each part of the meaning to individual component parts, and many learners do try to do so as a vocabulary exercise, rather than recognising the added layer of idiom. Edited by Cainntear on 13 November 2011 at 5:28pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 38 of 65 13 November 2011 at 6:09pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
While I tried with great difficulty to make sense of all of this, the one think that struck me was, "The meaning of "salir" isn't "say", it's "leave/exit"." Here is the fundamental fundamental difference between Cainntear and myself. For me, in this context, "salir" means "say." Of course, in other contexts, it means "leave/exit" but here it is best translated by "say." What I have learned here is that the verb "salir" can be correctly used in this sort of situation that has no connection with leaving or exiting. As for the rest of the Cainntear's reasoning, I gave up trying to make sense of it. That is exactly what I want to avoid. I don't want to have to be thinking of how to use salir; I just want to use spontaneously and correctly. What I do know is that the example phrase that I gave has worked wonders for me as a conversational unit that I have adapted to many different settings. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 39 of 65 13 November 2011 at 6:16pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I have no idea how to answer this question. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5946 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 40 of 65 14 November 2011 at 1:06am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Presumably you've never encountered the idiom "to come out with something" in English, or the similar expression "out with it!" 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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