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Memorizing lists of "phrases" rather ... | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6485 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 49 of 65 15 November 2011 at 8:26am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Ok. I just thought you might have a fixed technique that you could share.
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 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6638 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 50 of 65 15 November 2011 at 1:35pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I think we all can agree that the construction "le salió con que" is both unexpected and worth learning. The question is whether you simply learn it as one block, or whether you try to understand how it came into being, which includes knowledge about its elements and some creative leaps of thought. For me this feeling for the the logic behind an expression is essential both for my personal satisfaction and for my memorization, while it seems to be a different situation for s_allard. No problem, I didn't expect everybody's thinking to function according to the same pattern. Ultimately we all have to learn as many of these idiomatic expressions, using whatever methods we find most efficient. But quantifying this is even more difficult than counting known words because we also have to judge whether each expression could be guessed or whether there would be other, equally likely word combinations that could have become part of the language, but didn't make it. With words we can refer to the headwords of a recognized standard dictionary, and there are only some fuzzy edges because of derivations which may be in general use, rare or not in use without any clear pattern. With larger word complexes the idiomatic standardization becomes less important, but it doesn't disappear totally. Some persons like to quote lines from poems, songs, proverbs, advertisements and political propaganda, and this is a logical extension of the idea behind idiomatic expressions. The quote has one canonical form, and any other word combination is in principle excluded (although translations and modernizations and abbreviation are sometimes accepted). But this is more a question about learning a culture than a language, with the consequence that those of us who don't have this habit can invent our own formulations instead and still be speaking in an idiomatically correct way. Edited by Iversen on 15 November 2011 at 1:54pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 51 of 65 15 November 2011 at 3:55pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I really believe that Iversen and I are not very far apart in this debate. As I said in a previous post, I don't see what the fuss is all about. We seem to agree on the main goal: to be able to utter meaningful and idiomatic sequences of words with decent pronunciation. And I certainly agree that it is important to understand the underlying logic and organization of the components of our phrases. This is why we study grammar and lists of vocabulary. The only real difference is perhaps a question of timing. I believe in jumping into real usable phrases as soon as possible while working on the analytical skills. That may mean learning something by heart before being able to analyze it, but that's O.K. The main thing is that I can get my articulatory muscles working on the new sequences of sounds and that I can start making sense quickly. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| amethyst32 Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5584 days ago 118 posts - 198 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, French | Message 52 of 65 15 November 2011 at 10:32pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Eh? I said I read a language blog that advocates learning phrases instead of words - not that s_allard is advocating it. What I'm "agreeing" with is his example of first learning a phrase and later using it flexibly as the need/abiility arises. Although I don't see it as an either/or thing, learning phrases in this way did speed up my own learning of vocab and grammar especially in the advanced beginner stage of Spanish. Edited by amethyst32 on 15 November 2011 at 11:11pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| hypersport Senior Member United States Joined 5816 days ago 216 posts - 307 votes Studies: Spanish | Message 53 of 65 16 November 2011 at 5:41am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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These constant debates are always the same thing. Amazing to me that anyone here even has time to actually learn a language.
Seems like caintear is always looking for some technicality in a post that he can argue. Why? The constant threads on word lists, sentence lists, anki, srs, flash cards... I started with Spanish in January of 06 with intense study, first courses and then immediately to native materials and speaking with natives, both online and in person. I speak Spanish fluently and communicate with native speakers about anything I need to. I taught a Mexican who doesn't speak English how to squat properly in the gym last night when I saw his terrible form. Dude was gonna tear his knees up within 6 months and probably his back too. I've never used any flash card system or word lists of any sort. I use NATIVE materials. I got interested in the CULTURE. I've made many friends who are native speakers and don't speak English. A massive variety of real content via podcasts, books, movies, tv, music, writing, speaking, all of this. And all day, every day. I've got Spanish in my ears in one way or another almost the entire day. If you ask me about a word list I'd say why? If I come across a word in a book that I don't know I look it up. Now with the context it makes perfect sense and it will stick, especially as it comes up again in similar context. Then when I hear it on tv I remember it. Now it's mine. But if I'm trying to recollect a word from some list during real conversation, I'm going to be fumbling around searching in my head for the word the same as if I had to pull out some dictionary. I don't see how spending time memorizing lists can be beneficial in real world speaking. I see it as a waste of time. Sure, in the beginning you need to memorize lots of things to get a grip on what's going on, this for me included a LOT of handwriting, but as soon as you get that out of the way you need to be deep into native materials where you can see all of these things working in several different ways. And you need to be conversing with natives and asking questions. You get to a point where you quit questioning "why" and you start to accept. Then things start to "feel" the same in the new language as they do in your native language, even though the construction of the words can be worlds apart. I've got almost 6 years of "study" and I still read a novel out loud, listen to music and podcasts, watch movies and tv every day and speak with natives daily. Why would I spend time looking at lists? I get more out of two novelas that I DVR 5 days a week alone than I would trying to go through anki decks or anything else like that. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 54 of 65 16 November 2011 at 2:15pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Kudos, hypersport, spot on. I have nothing to add.
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| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6485 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 55 of 65 16 November 2011 at 4:32pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
why? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| hypersport Senior Member United States Joined 5816 days ago 216 posts - 307 votes Studies: Spanish | Message 56 of 65 17 November 2011 at 2:01am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Why? Because I've got over 40 years speaking English and almost 6 speaking Spanish.
Reading out loud is probably one of the most effective yet underused tools at our disposal. Most people won't do it, it's a lot of work. Forces you to pronunciate correctly and helps with your intonation and fluidness of speech. Why? Because I know what it takes to actually learn a language with the intent to speak it. I speak it at a very advanced level. I've got no interest in telling someone that I learned "X" language and then not be able to bring it. This is a huge part of it. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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