Native material reading techniques (Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies) Language Learning Forum

Native material reading techniques
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Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies

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leosmith
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Message 25 of 43

12 November 2011 at 5:46pm | IP Logged

Ari wrote:

But intensive reading done right is not very time-consuming.

Maybe I misunderstood you, but it sounds like you think intensive reading isn't much more time consuming than extensive reading.
Either you have a different definition of those terms, or are at an advanced level already.

My definitions: Intensive - look up every unknown word, make sure I understand every sentence, memorize and regularly review the
day's words. Extensive - just read.

Let's just assume for a minute that I used your exact same system. I would still find intensive reading much more, well...intense. Lots of
unknown words to look up and decipher. Unlike you, hitting a button doesn't instantly make me know the meaning and pronunciation
of a word and the sentence it's part of. Having the information there quickly is useful, but there is still a lot more thinking involved than
in extensive reading. That thinking requires time, and also breaks the rhythm of reading. But memorizing and reviewing all the new
vocabulary that I encounter is the biggest time consumer.

Btw, I prefer you don't tell me that I'm wrong for preferring paper over high tech. We could have a discussion over what kind of learner
learns better, but it would probably be better to start a new thread.
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Cainntear
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Message 26 of 43

12 November 2011 at 8:23pm | IP Logged

leosmith wrote:

My definitions: Intensive - look up every unknown word, make sure I understand every sentence, memorize and regularly review the
day's words. Extensive - just read.

That's not my understanding of the terms (I wrote a blog post recently about how confusing the terms are)

Intensive reading, as I understand it, is reading closely and analytically. It is a way of reading.

Extensive reading isn't a way of reading -- it simply means reading a lot of material.

"Intensive" and "extensive" aren't supposed to be opposites, and logically everything you read (regardless of intensity) is part of the "extent" of your reading.
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Ari
Heptaglot
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Message 27 of 43

12 November 2011 at 8:57pm | IP Logged

leosmith wrote:

Either you have a different definition of those terms, or are at an advanced level already.

Yeah, I guess I've got different definitions. My definitions are only about looking up all the unknown words. You
look up all of them, you're doing intensive reading. You just keep reading without looking them up, you're doing
extensive reading. Most times you might be doing something inbetween, but probably closer to one end of the
spectrum.

It seems these terms are not in the forum glossary. I believe they were invented by Iversen. If he's reading this
post, I'd appreciate if he could elucidate on their usage.

Quote:

Btw, I prefer you don't tell me that I'm wrong for preferring paper over high tech. We could have a
discussion over what kind of learner learns better, but it would probably be better to start a new thread.

I apologise; my tone was disrespectful.
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Cainntear
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Message 28 of 43

12 November 2011 at 11:51pm | IP Logged

Ari wrote:

It seems these terms are not in the forum glossary. I believe they were invented by Iversen. If he's reading this
post, I'd appreciate if he could elucidate on their usage.

They're standard terms across the language teaching industry.

But they are very poorly explained in most of the books I've read. (Like just about every idea involved in teaching, sadly.)
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Iversen
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Message 29 of 43

13 November 2011 at 4:09am | IP Logged

The words intensive and extensive were not invented by me - however I have taken them from everyday uses like "intensive study" and "extensive coverage" rather from the language teaching industry or pedagogical science. When I followed a course in science history in the 70s I was told that there is a special use in semiotics where the 'intensive"' meaning of something is defined by some intrinsic quality keeping the group together and the 'extensive' meaning roughly by the collective of entities which the word is used about. But those definitions are not relevant here.

I have stressed the opposition between intenstive and extensive methods more clearly than most other commentators because I see one of the largest hurdles in language learning as being the idea that you can do everything at the same time. In my opinion it is better to specify what you are doing in a given moment and then optimize your methods accordingly. For instance you cannot both look half all words up in a text and train momentum in your reading. And you can't bother with every single detail when you speak (at least not before you are fairly advanced), else your speech will deteriorate to pure stop-go stop-go or even come to a screeching stop.

The main difference between the two kinds of activities is the degree to which you go into details. But when you go into details this automatically entails that you need more precise information - and more of it. As Ari pointed out you can save yourself some time for instance by using digital popup dictionaries - or if you study a written text you can try to get hold of a translation. I also find that it sometimes takes too long time to look things up in paper dictionaries. However the information there may be better, I am not always sitting at my computer and -last but not least - taking things slowly can give you time to memorize and to think things through (but only up to the limit where you become irritated and bored). For this reason I also copy snippets of texts by hand - I have simply found out that I remember things better that way.

In contrast extensive activities are by definition done faster and with less emphasis on absolute perfection. A total beginner may have to work slowly both with active and passive activities, but once you are trying to communicate with people you cannot afford to be slow, and therefore you have to train the ability to "bulldoze" your way through as I normally call it.

Edited by Iversen on 13 November 2011 at 4:12am
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leosmith
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Message 30 of 43

13 November 2011 at 2:23pm | IP Logged

Cainntear wrote:

Intensive reading, as I understand it, is reading closely and analytically. It is a way of reading.
Extensive reading isn't a way of reading -- it simply means reading a lot of material.

I prefer my definitions, and believe they are closer to what people mean when they use the expressions on this
forum.
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fiziwig
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Message 31 of 43

14 November 2011 at 1:36am | IP Logged

Hendrek wrote:

I've just started reading a native book in Italian "Uomini che odiano le donne" (originally in Swedish, "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" in English), which isn't too difficult, but probably more so than Harry Potter would be. What I'm trying now is something like what fasulye indicated.

Except instead of re-copying the book, I just dedicate a separate notebook to it and number the notebook pages to correspond to the book pages. I have to look up a lot of words still, which takes a long time, but I've already noticed that I'm remembering them when I encounter them later. If not, then I'm at least looking them up again and reinforcing the meaning. It's sort of like an SRS process that way. Also, you'll often find yourself able to simply refer to a prior page in the notebook rather than having to crack open the dictionary again.

I agree that knowing the grammar first is helpful, but this reading also helps to reinforce the less common structures, such as the subjunctive or literary past, in context.
---

I started trying this yesterday with La Reina del Sur in Spanish. I am at the point where I normally have to look up between 4 and 8 words per page. I copy those into a notebook as you suggested, and you are right. The second time I encounter a word I may not remember the definition but I definitely remember that I had already looked it up a few pages back so I flip back a page or two in my notebook to find it.

I am also copying out "tricky" phrases and sentences, i.e. phrases and sentences whose meaning is not immediately obvious, where I have to puzzle over the grammar a bit, or discover that some three-word collocation is actually an idiom ("por otro lado") or a "template" (<noun> es más <adj> que <noun>) . That way when I encounter that collocation again I can treat it like a vocabulary item without laboriously parsing out the "literal" translation.

It seems to be working really well. I'm not slowed down very much by the copying, and it seems to be cementing my new vocabulary more quickly, although I've only been doing it for barely two days. I'm definitely going to stick with it for a couple weeks at least to see what I think of it then.

--gary
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ericspinelli
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Message 32 of 43

14 November 2011 at 3:26am | IP Logged

Although I have posted this before, it seemed well received so I'm going to take
this opportunity to put it in a thread with a much more search friendly title:

ericspinelli wrote:

Since I think reading was the single most important thing I did
to gain fluency in Japanese (more so than even living in Japan), I'd like to share my
thoughts on and strategy for reading.

I lived nearly two years in Japan without a portable dictionary, paper or electronic. I
think this was important in learning how to read novels rather than read a dictionary.
The first 15 or so novels I read are marked up with pencil with things to look up
later, if at all, when I had internet access. I also stuck a small scrap of paper in
the front that I could mark notes and page numbers to later ask my teacher. I've reread
some of the books I read using this method and have had the joy of erasing most (but
not all) of those marks. Even when I did buy a portable dictionary I didn't change my
strategy much.

My marking system is quite simple. Unknown words get circled, grammar or difficult
passages get underlined with an arrow in the margin to find it easily. The latter gets
a note and page number on the scrap paper.

I don't recommend marking or looking up every unknown word until unknown words only
make up about 5-10% of the text. Below is my basic strategy for reading. I use three
different reading methods alternatively, though all of them use the marking system
above. They are, in order of frequency:

1) Extensive reading. I read quickly and I look up nothing unless I absolutely must.
Things are looked up later, if at all. This is an enjoyable way to read a story.

2) Vocabulary-centric reading. In addition to circling them, I note words I do not know
along with their page number in a notepad. I look up these words at a later time and
gives me lists to study later (though they rarely are). Because I am not stopping for
actual dictionary use I can amass large amounts of vocabulary in context in a
relatively short period of time. When looking them up afterward, for words that I
cannot understand or feel I should be able to use myself, I reread the sentences or
paragraphs they were found in.

3) Intensive reading. I read slowly and carefully, looking up words as I go. Though
these words rarely get written down this gives me a chance to ponder specific word
choices, style, and grammar which I understand but do not use myself.

I alternate these methods essentially at whim, though if anything place is the largest
determining factor. I am much more inclined to read for vocabulary if I have a solid,
flat writing surface and more inclined to read extensively while standing on the train.
If I was going to suggest a strategy, I would recommend doing them in order 3->2->1
while reading through the same work. When breaking in a new author or work, the first
chapter, or 50 pages, or what have you, get intensive attention. After this you can
afford to read less and less intensively as the work progresses.

For readers with lower comprehension rates I would limit vocabulary-centric reading to
lessen the otherwise tremendous word-list load. I would note only the words that repeat
and verbs. If it is necessary to further reduce the words, I would write down only
those words that appear 3 or 4 times and in at least two different paragraphs/sections.
This is because some words may appear multiple times in a very specific context but be
useless (at this stage) in a broader scope.

To conclude, I think it's important to note that this is takes a long time. Your first
novel might take a month or more. Your fourth or fifth might also. The important thing
is that there is a fourth and fifth. Checking things off saying, "Well, I've read a
novel in my target language now, so that's reading," isn't a viable strategy. You've
read thousands of pages in your native language and though, as an adult, you can make
more significant gains in fewer pages read than you did as a child, you're still going
to have to hit the thousands of pages in your target language to get where you want to
be.

From http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?T ID=22240&PN=26

Edited by ericspinelli on 14 November 2011 at 3:29am

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