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Audiolingualism & Grammar translation | ||
Tags: Translation | Grammar | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Al-Irelandi Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5470 days ago 111 posts - 177 votes  Speaks: English* | Message 9 of 35 10 November 2011 at 10:07pm | IP Logged | |||||
1)Can you name such theories that have failed since audiolingualism? 2)Are you also implying that nothing has bettered audiolingualism and has yet to do so? 3)Audiolingualism was dismissed 30+ years ago, it is hardly a modern day trend. If we stuck at its behavourist origins and didn't progress in analysis of such SLA methods we would have missed out on many subsequent findings since. Edited by Al-Irelandi on 10 November 2011 at 10:12pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| smallwhite Pentaglot Senior Member Australia Joined 5243 days ago 537 posts - 1045 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin, French, Spanish | Message 10 of 35 10 November 2011 at 10:46pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Hi Al-Irelandi,
You seem to have something in mind that you feel is superior - what is it? I don't use those books you listed, though I do read TY if it's available in the library; but it's not my main book. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5946 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 11 of 35 11 November 2011 at 12:46pm | IP Logged | |||||
The idea of the "ivory tower" experts is verging on mythology. A hell of a lot of teaching fads aren't started by academics, but by teachers who pick up something that experts say, then exaggerate it and warp it into a complete ideology. The people who quote the academics aren't usually listening to the academics, and end up giving them a bad name. EG. Expert says: -> Rote learning isn't effective Teacher hears: -> Don't repeat stuff (misinterpretation) Result: -> Students don't learn Other teachers say: -> You need repetition (100% true) These teachers react by: -> Reintroducing rote learning Result: -> Students bored. What the experts mean by rote learning is meaningless mechanical drilling, but many teachers can't see beyond the idea of repetition. One of the things some Assimil courses do right is that they reuse lots of previous structures in very different ways from chapter to chapter, and the same words but in different tenses, structures or expressions. That's repetition, but it's not rote, and it's something that isn't completely bound to the core methodology. And this is a very important point: What makes teachers "good teachers" is that they structure the material properly. This is more important than the overarching methodology, but it's the methodologies that get all the attention. Why? Because you can stick a brand-name on methodologies. You can have expensive conferences and training courses under that brand-name, you can sell materials under that brand-name. Methodologies mean money. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6638 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 12 of 35 11 November 2011 at 1:48pm | IP Logged | |||||
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It is probably correct that a succession of simplistic brand-name methodologies get all the attention, and therefore those who study teaching (and to some extent learning) methodologies have to hammer out their ideas in an overtly eye-catching way - or at least got someone do it for them. Besides you don't get any attention in the academic world without making discoveries, and this in itself can be a reason for the series of 'revolutions' we see in teaching. Or in other words: saying that those who lived before you actually weren't totally off the mark won't get you any attention, and no attention no money.
That should however not hinder us in retaining valuable ideas from the past, nor from combining them to suit our own purposes. As I have written earlier I followed Latin courses in two steps, and it was in both cases pure grammar-translation methodology. Afterwards I have cometo the conclusion that this method certainly doesn't cover everything you need to learn a language, but it does the few things it does fairly well. I.e. you learn grammar, you get a vocabulary, and you learn translation to and fro. But there is certainly room for improvement: translation into your native langage is useful as a control, but it is silly to demand that the translation conforms to the norms of that language - precision and fidelity in the translation is much more important than a beautiful endresult. Translation into the foreign language is good because it forces you to increase your range - whereas simple conversation tends to reinforce the things you already know. But you have to think, speak and read freely in the target language to make it active, and these activities are totally absent from grammar-translation in its pure form. I have fewer experiences with audiolinguistical methods, although I did try to sit in a language 'laboratory' during my study of French. I like the idea of listening repeatedly to short snippets of speech in order to learn to understand a language (and absorb its sound), and repeating in synchron with a recording ('shadowing') is probably also an efficient way to acquire a good pronunciation. As for the drills I support the use of constrastive elements in language learning (not least in grammar!), but as I remember the instances of this kind of teaching/learning I have been subjected to they were simply sickeningly boring ... more boring than looking at fresh paint drying on a wall. With genuine texts about your own favorite themes things might work out better - after all I do copying by hand coupled with intensive study, and I do wordlists, so techniques based on repetition and slow study are not foreign to me. But a better choice of study materials is crucial, even if it means that the idea about a gradual, systematical extension of your knowledge is shot down. Which actually doesn't bother me the least as I anyway prefer a more global strategy for language learning. Since the audiovisual revolution we have principally seen an upsurge of 'natural methods'. The idea that you should use gradually more difficult texts/speech for your extensive learning is OK with me. The problem is that the more fanatical adherents of the natural methods have tried deliberately to exclude the use of simple and efficient sources for information, in particular grammars, and that they have tried to convince us that a restricted use of bettr known base languages would harm you. Which is pure nonsense when it comes to the sessions where you study intensively. If you can get simple, reasonable complete AND correct information about some grammatical feature in your own language then it is contraproductive to talk you from using that source and instead force you to live with vague, incomplete and partly erroneous impressions from those random things you have seen or heard. A complete language learning package should not be confined to one system. I strongly believe that different persons can profit from a different mix, and that some elements may actually be harmful (in my case that would be inane roleplaying in the company of other clueless beginners) - but of the three 'umbrella' methodologies above none can give me everything I need. Edited by Iversen on 11 November 2011 at 2:03pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 13 of 35 11 November 2011 at 5:00pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I don't see much of evidence of fads in the field of foreign language teaching. As someone who goes to a lot of conferences, I see a lot of experimenting with means of trying to deal with a fundamental problem that has not changed a lot: how do you engage of large class of children who have no interest in the subject that you are teaching? I have a lot of respect for those teachers (the vast majority of whom are women in North America) who have to get up every day in front of a class of 25 teenagers and attempt to communicate the importance of Spanish irregular verbs. The materials, the technology, the underlying philosophies, the role of the teacher and even the goals of language teaching have been changing, and this is only normal. Keep in mind that the classroom is part of a system of education and a major bureaucracy.
The classroom environment is light years away that of the independent or self-study learners like us at HTLAL. Here we have the luxury of choosing whatever works for us. If you like FSI, go for it. You prefer Assimil? No problem. Nobody cares about the theory behind the approach as long as it works. So, when I see teachers talking about dancing in the language class or how singing can be useful with young learners, I don't ridicule them. Quite the contrary, I recognize that they are experimenting with new ways to deal with a difficult situation. Somethings will work, others will not. Edited by s_allard on 11 November 2011 at 9:42pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Splog Diglot Senior Member Czech Republic anthonylauder.c Joined 5604 days ago 1062 posts - 3263 votes Speaks: English*, Czech Studies: Mandarin | Message 14 of 35 11 November 2011 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | |||||
I agree that dancing and singing in class can be a lot of fun, but that is different from saying it is effective for teaching. I have been in two summer courses which most of the class seemed to enjoy (and I hated) since the first consisted of singing lots of folk songs, and taking part in improvised theater productions. These may be fun, and great for "bonding" but I saw very little actual learning going on. The second language course involved lots of visiting cultural sites with narration in the target language. Unfortunately, they decided to bring along a translator who explained everything (and more) in English, with questions and answers in English too. Again, this may have made the trips entertaining, but they were not instructive. In summary, keeping the students happy and involved is a fine goal, but not (at least to me) if it means those who are already motivated are dragged down with them. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| fiziwig Senior Member United States Joined 4800 days ago 297 posts - 618 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 15 of 35 11 November 2011 at 5:47pm | IP Logged | |||||
I'm sure you are correct. My knowledge of the situation is second hand at best, and more that 20 years out of date, since the ex-wife quotes are at least that old. I started giving some serious thought to how I use Platequemos, and I noticed that for grammar I rely on textbooks (I've collected quite a few from second hand stores so I can compare explanations when something isn't clear to me). For vocabulary I rely mostly on reading in Spanish to tell me which words I should learn. For pronunciation I use recorded Spanish from podcasts, TV and movies. What I use Platequemos for, and what it has really helped me the most with are these two things: 1. Training my tongue to not stumble over words and phrases that start out being tongue-twisters. Even a simple phrase like "baja en el ascensor", or "la avenida independencia" when spoken at normal speed would cause my mouth and tongue muscles to get all tied in knots. These use sequences of sounds not commonly encountered in English. But when drilled over, and over, and over, it became second nature. And the improvement wasn't specific to those words and phrases because similar combinations of vowels and consonants became easier too. 2. Using replacement drills to train myself quickly, on the fly, without stopping to think about it, to select the correct verb person and number and the correct article and adjective for gender and number agreement. So in a sense, I'm not really using Platequemos to "learn" Spanish, but rather to practice and train muscle memory of things I have already learned elsewhere. That being the case, in all honesty I should probably not comment on the effectiveness of such methods for "learning" a language. --gary 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 16 of 35 11 November 2011 at 6:05pm | IP Logged | |||||
I stand by my original statement: "Some things will work, others will not." If dancing, singing and having fun in a class are not effective learning tools for you, then you know what not to do. On the other hand, perhaps for an audience of twenty 8-year old children singing in the foreign language might be more useful than learning conjugation tables by heart. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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