Audiolingualism & Grammar translation (Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies) Language Learning Forum

Audiolingualism & Grammar translation
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Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies

35 messages over 5 pages: 1 2 3 4 5

Jeffers
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Message 33 of 35

05 December 2011 at 8:05am | IP Logged

Cainntear wrote:

Nope.

Nope to what? This is why you and s_allard do nothing but go around in circles.

Cainntear wrote:

"the more you memorize, the easier it becomes to memorize"
No-one would deny this (and it would be silly to, given the proven success of habitual mnemonicists in memory championships).

And yet people do deny this.

Cainntear wrote:

Anyway, language is a process of creating sentences, not recalling them. With perhaps two or three exceptions, each of the sentences I've written in this post unique -- I've never written them before. As you say, the brain learns by doing, so practising memorisation would never get me to the point of writing a post like this in any language.

The sentences are unique, as you say, but fairly obvious. I only mentioned that an educationalist who trained teachers in my school spoke against memorization. I didn't say that all of language is memorization.

Let's get back to the point of this thread: the OP claims that audiolinguist and grammar translation models are flawed, and that most (all?) of the popular self teaching methods are also flawed. I'd like to see two things:

1. What evidence can he give that they are flawed?
2. What method he would suggest in their place?

I've yet to see a method that is completely different from the two approaches. In fact, criticisms of the audiolingual method say what the student needs is grammar instruction. Criticisms of the grammar translation approach say the student doesn't need grammar, they need examples, and you can't speak by translating. Most of us on HTLAL would agree to a balanced approach between the two. But is there another way?
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Cainntear
Pentaglot
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Message 34 of 35

05 December 2011 at 2:10pm | IP Logged

s_allard wrote:

As happens so often here, I don't understand this fuss about memorization vs learning.

If we don't use "memorisation" to mean something specific, then it has no value as a word.

Quote:

Call it what you want, in foreign language learning there is much sheer memorization. Sure, there are lots of rules that allow to generalize and construct totally unique sentences every time, but the plain truth is that you have to learn by heart, i.e. memorize a ton of material. Now, memorization does not have to mean mind-numbing rote repetition of conjugation tables. There are all kinds of interesting strategies and tools.

I think this makes "memorisation" into an overly broad (and therefore useless) term.

In most usage, "memorisation" is about conscious memory -- it's about declarative knowledge rather than procedural knowledge.

In language, our goal is to be using procedural knowledge.

If you see "memorisation" as something that trains procedural memory, then you are seeing "memorisation" as a synonym for "learning". If so, why bother with the word "memorisation" at all? Why not stick with "learning"?

Quote:

You can call on all sorts of rules that will determine the morphology and the syntax of a language, but you have to memorize the rules.

Anyone reading that who didn't know you would misunderstand that, because when you say "memorise the rules", people think of the conscious process of "remove er, add ez" etc. But that's not your way of teaching. That's why I'm being so particular about the usage of "memorisation" -- if it's not used the way people understand it, they won't understand your message.

Quote:

And on another note, I'm firm believer in the value of learning by heart set phrases and entire dialogues in the target language. It's wonderful phonology training. It gives you something to say and, above all, it introduces the grammatical structures. Combine this with grammar analysis and you have a winning combination.

My problem with this is that it gives you something to say without giving you any reason to say it.

Edited by Cainntear on 05 December 2011 at 2:23pm
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s_allard
Triglot
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Message 35 of 35

05 December 2011 at 6:56pm | IP Logged

Well, if the word memorization is causing a problem, let's call it commit to memory. Basically, then you have to commit a lot of stuff to memory when learning a foreign language. So, if you are learning the present tense of the irregular verb aller in French, you have to commit to memory the forms that cannot derived from the infinitive by any applicable rule. Whatever process this is, the end result is the same, you should be able to recall the correct form spontaneously.

As for learning set phrases and entire dialogues, we have been down that road a few times already, and I don't feel like trotting out those old arguments. What it all boils down--and I'm saying this for the entire debate here--is do what works for you. If that includes standing on your head, so be it. If it's vintage Assimil, I won't argue with results. If FSI rocks your boat, who am I to pooh pooh that method? Who cares about the theory, show me the results.

Edited by s_allard on 05 December 2011 at 7:58pm

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