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When can one adopt a native dictionary? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 89 of 124 29 November 2011 at 12:10am | IP Logged | |||||
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Rather than get distracted by strange noises and rumblings, I'll continue with my analysis of the limitations of the bilingual dictionary. We saw that "ambulatory" is translated as simply "no encamado". But in the English monolingual dictionary, there were three definitions, all related of course, and four examples. Your knowledge of how to use ambulatory is basically dependent on your usage of "no encamado". You would tend to use "ambulatory" where you would spontaneously "no encamado" in Spanish. If you look at the examples given, it is quite clear that "no encamado" is not the correct translation in all the contexts.
A more complete bilingual dictionary will certainly give more equivalents of "ambulatory" than just "no encamado" and attenuate this problem. But this is a real example from a very credible source. The monolingual dictionary does not tell us how to translate all the nuances of "ambulatory" into Spanish. This where we have to do the work in our minds. And this is where the good bilingual dictionary is handy. This is precisely why I think it's nice to have both kinds of dictionaries. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5388 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 90 of 124 29 November 2011 at 12:15am | IP Logged | |||||
Le Petit Robert is a true gem. My French is far from excellent. When in France I can do simple stuff such as buying train tickets, order meals at a restaurant, asking for directions etc. I can listen to news on the radio and read newspapers, Wikipedia articles and some books without too much trouble. I'm not confident when speaking or writing the language, and I certainly can't participate in a conversation where native speakers talk to each other at normal speed. I think my French and my German are at about the same level. However, whereas I find the explanations given in Le Petit Robet easy to understand and the examples clarifying and truly helpful, I find Duden Deutsches Universalwörterbuch confusing and pretty much useless to me. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5946 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 91 of 124 29 November 2011 at 10:22am | IP Logged | |||||
I learnt a great proverb yesterday: "Qui veut noyer son chien, l'accuse de rage." 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4844 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 92 of 124 29 November 2011 at 5:59pm | IP Logged | |||||
Did you find that in a monodic or a bidic? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 93 of 124 29 November 2011 at 6:30pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Here is another example that shows the contrast between translation (bilingual dictionaries) and definition (monolingual dictionaries). This time a French-speaker reads in the April 14, 2011 edition of www.businessweek.com the following title of an article, "The Grandaddy of All Bubbles?" To give some sense of the meaning, here is the subtitle, "World markets are frothing like shaken Champagne, and doomsayers argue that today's bubbles need to be deflated now before they get dangerously large".
Our curious reader looks for a French translation of the word "grandaddy" in an online bilingual dictionary. Actually, it's quite hard. Google translate gives: "le grand-père de toutes les bulles" It seems that the only bilingual dictionary for this word is Reverso that gives us: grandaddy , granddaddy (US) * n papi m , pépé m Now, let's look at a simple online monolingual dictionary: http://www.yourdictionary.com/granddaddy granddaddy noun pl. granddaddies 1. granddad 2. 1. the biggest or best of its kind 2. the first or oldest of its kind Webster's New World College Dictionary Copyright © 2010 by Wiley Publishing, Inc., Cleveland, Ohio. Used by arrangement with John Wiley & Sons, Inc. See granddaddy in American Heritage Dictionary 4 also gran·dad·dy (grănˈdădˌē) noun pl. grand·dad·dies also gran·dad·dies Informal 1. A grandfather. 2. One that is the first, oldest, or most respected of its kind: the granddaddy of modern computers. Again, we see that the bilingual dictionary is giving us an equivalent of "grandaddy" not a definition. Of course, the reader knows that "pépé" and "papi" are informal terms for "grand-père", but how does this relate to our original phrase? If you look at the monolingual dictionary, we see that there are two distinct meanings and the second one having two submeanings. This is what we are interested in: 2. 1. the biggest or best of its kind 2. the first or oldest of its kind In our original sentence then the "grandaddy" of bubbles refers to the biggest bubble ever. But "grandaddy" can also refer to "ancestor", as in "the grandaddy of modern computers." How can you tell which is which? The only way is context. Again, the French-speaker is confronted with the same problem of how to use "grandaddy" correctly. This particular bilingual dictionary--and there are better ones-- is totally useless. This is the problem. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5946 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 94 of 124 29 November 2011 at 6:51pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Again, it's an editorial decision. A) YourDictionary is another online dictionary (so use of paper is not an issue); B) YourDictionary has made the editorial decision to include current slang usages. There are plenty of specialist bilingual slang dictionaries too.
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| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 95 of 124 29 November 2011 at 8:10pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Is "grandaddy" slang? The dictionaries mark it as informal and a diminutive of "grandfather", as "daddy" is to "father". The problem here is how to define slang. www.businessweek.com is a serious publication and hardly given to using slang. At the same time, it's not an academic journal. The writing style is typically that of general-audience American magazines along the lines of Time magazine. The line between informal and slang may be fuzzy. I only mention this because there are not very many bilingual English-French slang dictionaries. In fact, I couldn't find any. If @cainntear could suggest some, I would be most grateful.
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| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5946 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 96 of 124 29 November 2011 at 9:37pm | IP Logged | |||||
"Grandaddy" in the sense we're discussing here ("it's the granddaddy of all <whatever>) is slang.
Which brings me back to the point I was trying to make earlier. Monolingual dictionaries are most useful to the learner when they have specific requirements that aren't fulfilled by the available bilingual dictionaries. It's not a question of being "good enough", and it's nothing to do with "learning the language through the language" -- it's a simple question of availability. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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