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When can one adopt a native dictionary? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6258 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes  Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 25 of 124 16 November 2011 at 8:20pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I was encouraged in my last year of school to use Le Petit Robert, a large monolingual dictionary, when studying French. This did not mean refraining from use of bilingual dictionaries, but was a new weapon in the armoury. My level by then was, I would say, intermediate, and I think this is a good point to start using a monolingual dictionary.
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| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5416 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 26 of 124 16 November 2011 at 8:36pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I will let readers decide who is right or wrong. I am a believer in facts and and examples and not so much in lofty statements. The reason I disagree so much with Cainntear is that I see so many unsupported assertions and grand statements without any foundation. And when we get to specific examples, especially in Spanish and French, things get even more confusing. But rather than get into a shouting match, I'll look at Caintear's statement on the grammar reference by Maurice Grevisse. I suspect that a person who can claim that Le bon usage "... comes from a tradition of grammars written by people who think they know better than the average speaker -- people who are happy to declare that normal usage is wrong." has never opened the book. Maurice Grevisse was not a purist. He defined himself as a "grammairien" a specialist of modern usage and particularly of what is considered proper usage. If you actually read the book, instead of imagining things from the title, you will see that his basic approach is to document the usage of known authors and writers on points of grammar. This is what he called "le bon usage." He never declares normal usage wrong. He is actually one of the least prescriptive authors on French grammar. Grévisse was actually somewhat of a revolutionary in his time because he broke with a tradition of linguistic purism that dictated proper usage. I'll quote from the preface to the 1955 edition: "À ceux qui songeraient à reprocher à M. Grevisse un certain laxisme à l'endroit des nouveautés réputées par eux dangereuses, je répondrais volontiers, avec Ferdinand Brunot,--gramairien plus "large" au demeurant, que l'auteur du Bon Usage,--qu'il ne faut pas s'opposer aux nouveautés de la langue que "pour de bonnes et solides raisons". (Fernand Desonay) 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| PaulLambeth Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5359 days ago 244 posts - 315 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Icelandic, Hindi, Irish | Message 27 of 124 16 November 2011 at 9:21pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Good call to let us all look over the arguments. I agree with Cainntear that we don't learn any words that are at least common with a native dictionary. Occasionally I will look up a word I've heard and not understood from context, and that might not appear in a smallish bilingual dictionary, but that's a very advanced level. I would probably find it useful to use a monolingual dictionary later for Iversen's reasons, but having not owned an English dictionary for a long long time, I can't really say what a monolingual dictionary would typically have, so I can't contribute further.
Can I just say, though, that all posts on this forum (except in the multilingual lounge) are supposed to be written in English. That includes - and I've seen it elsewhere lately - translating quotes from other people in other languages. I don't speak much French and the Google translation doesn't make sense. What does that quote say in English? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5997 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 28 of 124 16 November 2011 at 9:22pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
The thing is your "facts" are unproven, making them no better than "lofty statements", and again, you're engaging in ad hominem attacks, trying to prove me wrong on technicalities rather than the core argument. This is not a debating society -- nobody should be out to "win".
Sorry, but that's one of the cheapest debating society tactics ever, and you do it again and again. You launch an attack on me, then try to stifle my response by suggesting you don't want a fight or a slagging match. I'm willing to accept that we differ in our opinions if you'd just be a bit gracious about it, but I won't let you shout me down.
A) Grevisse may have attempted to be descriptive, but in the end he was making his own subjective judgement of individual merit. Literature is rarely a representative sample of natural language. B) As I say, you're attacking me on a technicality, on a minor point. Even if Maurice Grevisse had been a time travelling 21st century corpus linguist, my argument still stands: Native speakers do not learn their grammar from a book. THEREFORE: Reading a native grammar does nothing to help you see the language "from a native perspective" that can't be done in a bilingual book. Are you going to argue against that? Or do you have another ad hominem attack up your sleeve. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5248 days ago 2241 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 29 of 124 16 November 2011 at 10:03pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Some day, some smart apple is going to come up with the way to learn languages. It will be intuitive, efficient and successful! Until that day, there are many paths that lead to the promised land. Those of us who have successfully learned at least one foreign language to proficiency, or C1 or C2, or whatever you wish to call it, know what has worked for us. Just because a method or approach works/worked for us doesn't necessarily mean that it will be as useful for others.
One thing that I love about the forum is that I can see what has helped other people. I can then pick and choose what I wish to try and judge for myself. Do I use monolingual dictionaries, yes. Do I use bilingual dictionaries, yes. Each have their place and each helps me to see a word or idiom from a slightly different angle. I mostly use monolingual dictionaries in Spanish and only occasionally consult a bilingual dictionary, probably 50/50 in Portuguese. To me, it's not about winning or losing. It's about what can I offer to help others. Lord knows, I am the farthest from a grammarian/linguist there is. I just know what works for and what helps me. It may help others, or, it may not. To each his/her own. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5416 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 30 of 124 16 November 2011 at 10:43pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Frankly, I don't have time to waste on silly arguments. I see that a fair number of people like using monolingual dictionaries. Others don't, but that's fine as well. Do whatever works for you. Case closed.
As for grammar books in native language, the same applies. I stand by my previous statements about the using reference works in the target language, I like to call it the immersive effect. One is studying the language in the language. Just as an aside, for people in Spanish, in my opinion, one of the most outstanding grammar books is the two-volume work, Gramática comunicativa del español, by Francisco Matte Bon. It may be just me, but I read these two volumes like novels. Clear explanations, hundreds of real examples and a very interesting approach. If you are able to read in Spanish, have a look at this work. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5248 days ago 2241 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 31 of 124 16 November 2011 at 10:52pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Thank you, I most definitely will! Edited by iguanamon on 16 November 2011 at 10:57pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5416 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 32 of 124 17 November 2011 at 1:55am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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If anybody is interested in this phrase-based approach, I would highly recommend a product that comes from Canada and that I have mentioned before to some people. It is a system of charts in the form of a perpetual wall calendar. I have one in front of me for Spanish and find it very effective. It also exists for French. They are not easy to get and the website has been a neglected a bit, but they are very effective. Check them out at: www.langcal.com
Here is the translation of the previous quote in French "À ceux qui songeraient à reprocher à M. Grevisse un certain laxisme à l'endroit des nouveautés réputées par eux dangereuses, je répondrais volontiers, avec Ferdinand Brunot,--gramairien plus "large" au demeurant, que l'auteur du Bon Usage,--qu'il ne faut pas s'opposer aux nouveautés de la langue que "pour de bonnes et solides raisons". (Fernand Desonay) To those those would accuse M. Grevisse of being too indulgent towards those innovations they consider dangerous, I would quickly answer, like Ferdinant Brunot--a grammarian even more tolerant than the author of Le Bon Usage--that one must reject innovations in the language solely for good and solid reasons". (Fernand Desonay) Edited by s_allard on 17 November 2011 at 1:57am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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