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When can one adopt a native dictionary? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| trance0 Pentaglot Groupie Slovenia Joined 5685 days ago 52 posts - 78 votes  Speaks: Slovenian*, English, German, Croatian, Serbian | Message 65 of 124 23 November 2011 at 8:16am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Slovene bilingual dictionaries are really horrible in this respect, plus completely obsolete. One is actually forced to use good monolingual dictionaries in order to get all the necessary information and examples of usage...
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 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6638 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 66 of 124 23 November 2011 at 10:16am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Good point. And this is exactly why I stress that you always should learn the elements of an expression with or before the complete expression (and if an element doesn't exist in the modern language I would dearly love to know whether it did in the past). The reason is that you then have a chance of understanding what the expression really means and not just what you could have said instead. But this is a problem both for bilingual and monolingual dictionaries. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5946 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 67 of 124 23 November 2011 at 11:01am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
No, they are not "definitions", but they constitute a definition. I.E. if you take all the information together, you can understand the word as a whole. It is not just a list of equivalents, because the entry is highly structured so that the equivalents interact with each other.
Again, I didn't claim it was a "list of definitions" but a single definition. Just because it's not in stilted prose like a monolingual dictionary doesn't stop it being a definition -- it just means it's not being explained. The information's all there, and the context is specifically indicated. That's sufficient to define the meaning without giving a wordy explanation.
Again, this is a question of proper dictionary use. If you're translating to your native language, you use one half of the dictionary. But if you're translating to your target language, you're likely to need both halves. Edited by Cainntear on 23 November 2011 at 11:05am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 68 of 124 23 November 2011 at 12:57pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I guess we don't agree on what the term definition means. Let's look at how the online MacMillan treats "go off": # 1 [intransitive] to explode, or to be fired The gun went off while he was cleaning it. # 2 [intransitive] if something such as a light or an electricity supply goes off, it stops working or being available All the lights in the building suddenly went off. # 3 [transitive] go off someone/something British to stop liking someone or something I went off the idea of buying a sports car after I found out how much it would cost. # 4 [intransitive] to leave a place, especially for a particular purpose go off to: Dave’s gone off to the south of France for the summer. go off to do something: He went off to have lunch in the canteen at one o’clock. # 5[intransitive] to start making a noise as a signal or warning I was just lying in bed waiting for the alarm to go off." I don't know if this is "wordy" or "stilted", but it certainly gives a rather clear picture of five usages or definitions of "go off". Notice how the learner's vocabulary is enhanced by all the synonyms in the definitions. Notice how the examples enhance the definitions by bringing the usage to life. Notice the grammatical note "intransitive" or "transitive" and regional usage "British". The Catalan speaker who is able to use this dictionary gets quite a good picture of how "go off" is used in English. However, they do not get the translations into Catalan. That is the value of a good English-Catalan dictionary. How would you convert this dictionary into a bilingual one? You replace the English-only definitions or synonyms with Catalan entries and, preferably, translate the examples. Again, my point is that it is all a question of your needs and level of proficiency in the target language. A good bilingual dictionary will do the job. A good monolingual dictionary will add more sophistication. Edited by s_allard on 23 November 2011 at 1:02pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5946 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 69 of 124 23 November 2011 at 2:58pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
These two sentences are mutually contradictory. If the picture is "clear", it is because the definition is easy to understand. For the learner's vocabulary to be "enhanced" by synonyms, these must be words they do not know, so the definition cannot be understood easily.
Again, this sort of information isn't unique to monolingual dictionaries. Any decent university-level bilingual dictionary will list this information.
You keep insisting you're not saying it's better, but then you keep adding these positive words. There is nothing inherently "sophisticated" about a monolingual dictionary. As I've said before, the Collins Spanish<->English dictionary currently sitting in my house is every bit as sophisticated as the Diccionario Salamanca that is sitting right next to it, or even more so. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
 Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5782 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 70 of 124 23 November 2011 at 3:28pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I fully agree with this: I always learn both the meaning of the single elements of an expression and then the expression as a whole. Doing this the expressions stick better in my memory. Fasulye 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 71 of 124 23 November 2011 at 6:36pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I can't decode these cryptic statements from @Cainntear, but it is the occasion to revisit the notion of definition, especially of verbs. If you look at the definitions or usages of "go off", you see fives entries consisting each of an explanation or a series of synonyms. What we see is that the same entry "go off" takes on a specific meaning only in a specific context. In fact, one can question whether there is any connection between an alarm clock going off, the electricity going off and going off to France. There really isn't much connection besides the common form "going off". In a sense, "going off" really doesn't have any meaning by itself. This is why synonyms, explanations and examples are so important. The Catalan user who wants to enhance their English would probably be well served by consulting the monolingual dictionary. Whereas the English-Catalan translator should use a bilingual dictionary. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5946 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 72 of 124 23 November 2011 at 7:00pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
For pity's sake, what is cryptic about that? If something is clear, you understand it easily. That's why we call it clear. If you're enriching your vocabulary with synonyms, then the synonyms must be new. And if they're new to the reader, then they don't understand them. Obviously. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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