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Can adult learners achieve native levels? | ||
Tags: Native Fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 73 of 303 03 October 2012 at 2:50pm | IP Logged | |||||
I disagree. I think that most adults put a lot of effort into phonetics because it is the primary mode of learning a language. One of the first things we do when we learn new words is to attempt to pronounce them. Learners are always trying to pronounce what they are learning. It's easy to say that the reason most people do not develop good or native-like pronunciation is because they don't put in enough work. The problem of adult learners is fossilization. At a certain point, the pronunciation becomes set in a pattern and tends to stay there forever. What has to be done, possibly with the outside help, is to break out of this pattern or acquire a new pattern. Intensive exposure to the language and the help of a spouse or some kind of feedback will work wonders of course. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5208 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 74 of 303 03 October 2012 at 3:12pm | IP Logged | |||||
That's true, but there's also the fact that even for those who do want to put effort into it, it's often not easy, not least because it's hard to find resources that explain it well. Quality information on how to pronounce all of the individual sounds of a given language generally does exist but can be quite difficult to dig up; commonly recommended methods like shadowing are useful for certain things (e.g., improving intonation) but have their limitations; and tutors who have an in-depth understanding of phonetics to the point where they can tell somebody exactly what they're doing wrong and how to fix it, beyond obvious stuff such as mixing up individual vowel sounds, seem to be quite rare. All this is possibly because so few learners are looking for these types of resources - they either pick up the pronunciation and accent easily, or the're bad but don't bother trying to improve it. Other areas like grammar and vocabulary are covered very comprehensively for popular languages and are understood and taught well by teachers, so while they may be no easier to master in theory, there isn't a lack of resources impeding the learner's progress. Personally, I'm one of these people who completely lacks the skill/talent/whatever it is for accurately reproducing sounds and accents that I hear, so I need to have everything explained in terms of tongue positions and all the rest. As one example, I've been told for a couple of years that my voice in French is too "from the throat not the mouth", but nobody's ever been able to offer me a useful explanation of what exactly that means and how I can improve it. Study of phonetics and exercises like shadowing have helped me get my pronunciation from awful to quite understandable - mistakes aside, I produce the individual sounds correctly and my intonation isn't bad - but I've yet to find the resources or methods or tricks to get beyond that point and to "good". I know I'll never sound like a French person, which is fine, but at the same time it's hard to argue with the benefits of having a good accent. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6910 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 75 of 303 03 October 2012 at 4:59pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I agree with Марк that a lot of people put very little effort into pronunciaton - or maybe they actually DO work on their pronunciation (and/pr listening) but should revise their methods?
I'm not sure that someone like Olle Kjellin (or his method) can turn a "hopeless" case into a native-sounding speaker in say, two months, but with the right method most people should at least be able to sound as if they're trying to sound English/French/German/whatever. It's no wonder a learner who totally ignores phonetics and prosody won't sound "native". 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4623 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 76 of 303 03 October 2012 at 5:15pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I work beside a French lady who has been in the UK for 25 years and speaks fluent English in both creative and casual fashion. She knows all the idioms and figures of speech and can laugh and joke without hesitation in the company of natives. The language itself is near enough native standard in my opinion.....but she sounds French.
As soon as she opens her mouth, you realise that she is foreign. Her French accent isn't particularly heavy and it doesn't impede comprehension in any way, but the lilt is there. As I've said several times before, native English speakers are used to hearing their language spoken in myriad accents and it doesn't throw us off balance to hear foreign tones. People harp on about the importance of not having an accent I think it's actually better to speak with an accent and concentrate on refining and improving your knowledge of the language itself. The lady I mentioned does speak to native standard in my opinion, the accent adds colour, I see it as a positive attribute. Edited by beano on 03 October 2012 at 5:17pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 77 of 303 03 October 2012 at 5:39pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I want to add my voice to that of @beano. Like him or her, I actually think that a bit of an accent combined with mastery of the other aspects of the language is a winner. Unless one is trying absolutely to blend in or to impress friends and relatives, I don't see the point of trying to sound just like the natives.
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| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 78 of 303 03 October 2012 at 6:09pm | IP Logged | |||||
I don't see what a foreign accent can give. I know that that’s not only people’s fault. When we learn a language somewhere pronunciation is the last thing we pay attention to. Grammar is trained, explained and estimated all the time, while pronunciation is only sometimes mentioned. Edited by Марк on 03 October 2012 at 6:14pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5382 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 79 of 303 03 October 2012 at 6:13pm | IP Logged | |||||
I agree -- this might not be what you intended to say, but I'm generally uncomfortable with the idea that having a residual accent would somehow have advantages. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 80 of 303 03 October 2012 at 6:17pm | IP Logged | |||||
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There is one more thing: wrong pronunciation interferes grammar in spoken language.
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