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Can adult learners achieve native levels? | ||
Tags: Native Fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 81 of 303 03 October 2012 at 6:30pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
There's nothing inherently difficult about any grammatical feature, it just requires time. Just like pronunciation does. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 82 of 303 03 October 2012 at 6:38pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
You don’t see. Look at “the”. Both the pronunciation and usage of this word are a problem. But it took me several minutes to learn the pronunciation and I’m still not sure where to use it. Both require some time, but the time is different. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 83 of 303 03 October 2012 at 6:51pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Actually, if you practise pronouncing each individual word for a few minutes, pronunciation will definitely take more time than usage :) But even more importantly, plenty of people are unable to pronounce the two English th-sounds even after tons of practice. It's especially hard to consistently produce these sounds correctly, even when you are thinking of the grammar or trying to remember a word. Edited by Serpent on 03 October 2012 at 6:52pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 84 of 303 03 October 2012 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
If I can pronounce a sound in a particular word, I'll be able after some practice pronounce it everywhere. It's not a problem if you learn it from the beginning. I can't believe that there are people who can't put their tongues between their teeth. Edited by Марк on 03 October 2012 at 6:55pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4669 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 85 of 303 03 October 2012 at 7:11pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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It's not difficult for me to pronounce an isolated English TH, but in connected speech, it's difficult.
''She can scoop these things into three red bags.'' This sentence from ''Please call Stella'' is very problematic for most non-native speakers who want to sound native. Try to pronounce it while speaking fast. Native speakers get it right. For non-native speakers it's almost a tongue-twister, unless they/we pronounce it slowly. The only non-native speaker of [American] English who sounds native is Charlize Theron (but she started learning English at the age of 6, while in South Africa). Her 1st language is Afrikaans. ''In the Q&A afterwards, the perennial question came from an SA journalist: “Why have you lost your accent?” Charlize has been asked this before and replied with an excited greeting in Afrikaans, to which the hapless journalist had no answer. Charlize clearly doesn’t take fools lightly. “I left South Africa as a model when sixteen,” she explained. “I’d always spoken Afrikaans at home and my English was actually very bad; the reason I have an American accent is because in fact I learned to speak English properly in the US.”'' http://www.thesouthafrican.com/entertainment/an-evening-with -charlize.htm Edited by Medulin on 03 October 2012 at 7:26pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 86 of 303 03 October 2012 at 8:40pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I'm not saying that a strong foreign accent is a good thing. I said "a bit of a foreign accent..." @arekkusu used the term "residual accent" which I have used as well. Why do I think that it is a winner when COMBINED with impeccable grammar and vocabulary? I believe it adds an element of contrast (accent - good grammar) and exotica that can be pleasing. Many people find a bit of a French accent quite pleasant in English. As a matter of fact, many light foreign accents can be even more pleasant than some indigenous dialects. I hope its obvious that I'm not saying that a strong accent is good. Heavens no! I'm not saying that a perfect native-like accent is bad either. What I'm ultimately saying is that in the grand scheme of things impeccable grammar and vocabulary with a slight accent is a better combination than mediocre grammar and vocabulary with a perfect accent. Now, is perfect pronunciation and impeccable grammar and vocabulary the ideal? I'm not so sure. It depends on what wants to do. As I've said here and on many occasions, if it's a personal goal or one wants to blend in linguistically speaking, then that's fine. I just don' think it's worth the effort. Let me add that I respect the people who make the great effort to sound native-like or rather seemingly accent-free. I know the work that goes into that. But, the question is: so what? What does sounding like a native give if it means you sound just like everybody else? It's great for YouTube videos and impressing some people, especially if there is a contrast between looks and language. But suppose you are being interviewed on the radio and you sound like a native speaker, what really counts is what you have to say not the fact that you sound like any native speaker. In summary, I can totally understand those who believe that sounding accent-free is an important personal goal. But for me, I prefer to put my energies elsewhere and settle for a little accent that makes me stand out. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5867 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 87 of 303 03 October 2012 at 8:44pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I agree. That is a positive attribute in my opinion. If only I could claim such an ability in my L2s. I wouldn't even want to lose that final bit of accent. It would point out how well I could speak the L2. Otherwise, nobody would notice ;-) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 88 of 303 03 October 2012 at 8:58pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Remember, we're talking about a native-like pronunciation here. Of course it's not that hard to learn to produce this sound more or less comprehensibly, especially if you remember to emphasize it where ambiguity might happen. (kinda like the people who get the vowels slightly wrong everywhere apart from the words can't and sheet, because they were taught to pay extra attention to these words). For example, plenty of people from Western Europe use the articles correctly but can't prnounce th, even if they speak pretty well otherwise. Of course many just aren't trying, but many others are. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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