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Can adult learners achieve native levels? | ||
Tags: Native Fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5533 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes  Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 89 of 303 03 October 2012 at 9:35pm | IP Logged | |||||
I once met an older man from the south of France. He spoke a wonderfully gravelly French (too many cigarettes?), and he was a joy to listen to in French. But when he eventually spoke to somebody in English, I was so startled I must have blinked—he had exactly the same accent in English that he had in French. The same vowels, the same intonation, everything. He smiled at me and said, "Well, I would try to get rid of the accent, except that women love it." So there are people who like thick French accents, too, at least in a social context. Personally, I would love to eliminate almost all my accent in French, though I don't mind if a little leaks through now and then when I'm tired. If I can manage to be clear and pleasant-sounding, that's an excellent start. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6910 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 90 of 303 04 October 2012 at 12:13am | IP Logged | |||||
And that goes for nearly any speaker of any nationality I've ever witnessed, in person or on television. French people sound like coming straight out of "Allo' Allo!" (or a Pink Panther movie), Russians like Huliganov's Youtube parodies, and similar broken accents from Japanese, Germans, Spaniards, Chinese, Italians... Scandinavians aren't much better either. I think I've heard the best and the worst English sounding accents from Swedes. Edited by jeff_lindqvist on 04 October 2012 at 12:13am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| shk00design Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4445 days ago 747 posts - 1123 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French | Message 91 of 303 04 October 2012 at 6:40am | IP Logged | |||||
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Depends on your network of friends and associations. I know a family who is mix ancestry. The father is
Austrian & the mother is Dutch. The 2 boys who were liiving in Canada never spoke their mother-tongue at home. Now working in Europe they learned their French & German in school. And later Spanish & Italian while living in Europe. This was after they left university. The parents have always been active in the local church. Although they speak English with their European accents, you hardly pick out any grammatical errors. My father tried to pick up Spanish after his retirement. After several lessons quit. It was mostly his attitude that gave him trouble. He has all the free time but can never see himself in a social environment outside the classroom (being totally reliant on an instructor). Like someone who takes music lessons but not comfortable performing. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 92 of 303 04 October 2012 at 1:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
They have some other problems with grammar. But you forgot that phonetics is not usually taught or is taught poorly. And if you managed to get the sound right, it is right. But you can always encountre something new with articles. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 93 of 303 04 October 2012 at 1:59pm | IP Logged | |||||
Do you like native speakers who cannot pronounce certain sounds, for example pronounce sh instead of s in English? Or ch instead of s in French (do the same thing)? Does it give anything to them? What would it give to me, if I pronounce English general questions and requests with falling intonation at the end? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6583 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 94 of 303 04 October 2012 at 2:05pm | IP Logged | |||||
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It seems to me the major argument why one shouldn't work on one's accent is that it's mostly a waste of time. The vast majority of learners can work on their pronunciation until they're blue in the face and they won't get anywhere near native-like. Whereas the ones with a good accent don't need to spend time on it because it comes naturally. Sure, spend some hours working on understanding how the phonemes work and try to pronounce them correctly, but don't spend too much time on it, because that's time you could spend on grammar and vocab instead, where the ratio of effort to results is much better. Until someone comes up with some hard evidence I'm going to assume that accent if more or less fixed. If the first word you say in German doesn't sound like a German would say it, no word you say ever will, and no amount of "silent periods", shadowing* or virgin blood consumed under a full moon will get you there. Accept it and move on.
* Don't get me wrong, shadowing is a great method, but it's not gonna give you a perfect accent, as Arguelles will testify. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 95 of 303 04 October 2012 at 2:12pm | IP Logged | |||||
One of the problems of people who are obsessed with native-like pronunciation is that they tend to neglect other skills such as reading properly. If I may quote myself, here is what I wrote, as can be seen above, "What I'm ultimately saying is that in the grand scheme of things impeccable grammar and vocabulary with a slight accent is a better combination than mediocre grammar and vocabulary with a perfect accent." 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 96 of 303 04 October 2012 at 2:24pm | IP Logged | |||||
No. Working on pronunciation gives better and quicker results. It took me several minutes to learn how to pronounce "the" and I'm still not sure how to use it. I learned languages at school and university and I know that good pronunciation is not required. And what's better: to say "he like" instead of "he likes" or to say "shit" instead of "sheet"? Edited by Марк on 04 October 2012 at 2:39pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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