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Can adult learners achieve native levels? | ||
Tags: Native Fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| LaughingChimp Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4700 days ago 346 posts - 594 votes  Speaks: Czech* | Message 153 of 303 12 October 2012 at 5:21pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I admit I didn't think of this possibility. Speaking shouldn't feel painful. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5382 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 154 of 303 12 October 2012 at 5:24pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I would agree with you, but Medulin is telling us otherwise. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 155 of 303 12 October 2012 at 5:38pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Just to clarify what I meant about the importance of feedback in the process of correcting one's speech. For me this is essentially interaction with native speakers and more explicitly corrective criticism from a trained native.
For example, in writing this means having someone critique my work and making suggestions how to improve it. Reading lots of good writing in the target language is not feedback; one can find good models, but it's not the same as having somebody correct one's work. As for speaking, imitating lots of recorded examples is obviously very important, but actual interaction with speakers and, above all, constructive corrective criticism is very important. In my mind, it's the difference between buying a book and a CD on "Speaking Without An Accent" for $29,95 and working for a few weeks with a trained accent reduction specialist who charges $75 an hour. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 156 of 303 12 October 2012 at 6:01pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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If you just buy the CD then yeah, I agree. But buying it, working through it, recording yourself and getting feedback isn't necessarily worse than taking classes - depends on the classes! In other areas of the language the likelihood that the self-study will be more effective is even higher.
Seriously, some fans of language classes here are just like the Rosetta Stone spammers. An overwhelming majority of the members here believes in independent language learning, and convincing us to take classes is not effective :) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5382 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 157 of 303 12 October 2012 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I'd get a language coach to analyze my problems instead of buying the generic book/CD any day. Hearing problems doesn't tell you if you've got it, and you'll be wasting your time with problems you don't have.
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| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 158 of 303 12 October 2012 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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But if a student wants to improve his pronunciation very much, how quckly will it improve
if he works with a good trainer? And what about starting learning a language with fixing the pronunciation? I think it is still much easier than learning grammar. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6910 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 159 of 303 12 October 2012 at 6:48pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Where's Olle "Speech doctor" Kjellin when we need him? He should be able to answer some of our questions.
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| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 160 of 303 12 October 2012 at 6:57pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I don't see what there is to debate. There is nothing wrong with studying a language by yourself. In many cases, you can go to the library and study for free. Everybody here at HTLAL knows about self-teaching. So, if you can teach yourself good pronunciation, go right ahead.
On the other hand, if you have a little money, you buy some learning materials. If you have lots of money, or somebody else is paying for it, you take good classes and private instruction. For example, Middlebury College in Vermont, USA, charges about 10,150 USD for an eight-week intensive Mandarin language program in 2013. But you can go to the library and borrow a book with CD's for free. Which do you prefer? Which is better? If I had money to burn, I would certainly go for the course. But I don't have the money, so I go to the library. But I don't think that those Hollywood stars go the library to learn how to speak in various dialects. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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