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Can adult learners achieve native levels? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| okjhum Pentaglot Groupie Sweden olle-kjellin.com Joined 5205 days ago 40 posts - 190 votes  Speaks: Swedish*, Japanese, English, German, Russian Studies: Spanish, Polish, Greek | Message 217 of 303 19 October 2012 at 6:01pm | IP Logged | ||
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Please bear with me. :) Here is a little list of interesting and relevant reading, partly annotated. (There exist newer references, but my EndNote is not updated.)
1. Birdsong, D., Ed. (1999). Second Language Acquisition and the Critical Period Hypothesis. The Second Language Acquisition Research Series, Theoretical and Methodological Issues. Mahwah, New Jersey, Lawrence Erlbaum. 2. Bongaerts, T. (1999). Ultimate Attainment in L2 Pronunciation: The Case of Very Advanced Late L2 Learners. In: D. Birdsong (Ed.). Second Language Acquisition and the Critical Period Hypothesis. Mahwah, New Jersey, Lawrence Erlbaum: 133-59. Notes "Input enhancement through instruction ...term adapted from Ioup (1995). ...evidence that the original perceptual and motoric abilities that enable children to master the pronunciation of their L1 are not lost over time and can still be accessed by adults. We also cited evidence that late L2 learners tend to (over)rely on the categorical mode of perception and thus to perceive L2 sounds in terms of firmly established L1 phonetic categories." (p. 154) "In sum, what we suggest is that the success of the exceptional adult learners we identified may have been at least partly due to the combination of three factors: high motivation, continued access to massive L2 input, and intensive training in the perception and production of L2 speech sounds." (p. 155) 3. Bongaerts, T., C. van Summeren, et al. (1997). "Age and ultimate attainment in the pronunciation of a foreign language." Studies in Second Language Acquisition 19(4): 447-65. From Abstract "...results suggest that it is not impossible to achieve an authentic, nativelike pronunciation of a second language after a specified biological period of time. ...that certain learner characteristics and learning contexts may work together to override the disadvantages of a late start." 4. Jenkins, J. J. and G. Yeni-Komshian (1995). Cross-language speech perception: Perspective and promise. In: W. Strange (Ed.). Speech Perception and Linguistic Experience. Issues in Cross-Language Research. Baltimore, York Press: 463-79. Notes (p. 464) "Research on speech perception by infants acquired new importance and interest when it was shown, not only that infants were sensitive to almost all consonant contrasts that were tested, but that during the very first year of life, infants began to 'tune out' or ignore the distinctions that were not functional in the language around them. This dramatically important (and unexpected) finding could only have been discovered through cross-language research. From the work presented here we have learned another surprising fact: the linguistic environment is active in shaping vowel perception as well as consonant perception, and such shaping occurs even earlier for vowels than for consonants." (p.476) "General Needs Our needs at this point are easy to state but difficult to achieve. We need the following: -1. A detailed theory of the relation between L1 and L2. ... <snip> ... -2. A detailed theory of perceptual learning as it applies to learning the sounds of L2 after an individual has naturally acquired L1. Such a theory would ideally be articulated with a theory of training prescribing the procedures that must be applied in given circumstances to achieve the desired results -3. ...<snip>..." (p.476) My conceited, presumptuous impression is that my paper, "Accent addition:...", for the LP98 conference and proceedings (http://olle-kjellin.com/SpeechDoctor/ProcLP98.html), gives almost exactly what the authors are looking for in (2) and with strong implications also for (1), as if I had written it in direct reply to this "General Needs" list. (I wish I had some research facilities to evaluate my methods! But anyone can use them and try them out. More and more teachers in Sweden use them. Reportedly, though be it anecdotically, with astonishing results.) ++++++++++++++++++ Towards the end of chapter 16 there is a section "Practical Suggestions": "Scattered throughout this book are a variety of practical suggestions that are of potential value. Most of them are fragmentary and suggestive only, but they appear to be reasonable suggestions to be tested in practice. First, there is a consensus that speech perception training should use a base of varied utterances by many speakers in many phonetic settings. Regardless of what we think is "really" learned, this seems to be the optimal procedure at the present time. There is a practical suggestion here for any teacher of L2 and any person preparing material for language teaching laboratories. Second, there seems to be some agreement that exposure to the orthgraphy of L2 should be delayed if at all possible. Indeed, it is suggested that considerable exposure to listening to the L2 should be undertaken before listeners even try to produce the speech sounds. Orthographic presentations activate the wrong phonetic responses in many cases and may actually create patterns of perception and production that interfere with the attainment of appropriate sound perception and production. ... ..." (p.475) 5. Marinova-Todd, S. H., D. B. Marshall, et al. (2000). "Three misconceptions about age and L2 learning." TESOL Quarterly 34(1): 9-34. Abstract " Age has often been considered a major, if not the primary, factor determining success in learning a second or foreign language. Children are generally considered capable of acquiring a new language rapidly and with little effort, whereas adults are believed to be doomed to failure. Although older learners are indeed less likely than young children to master an L2, a close examination of studies relating age to language acquisition reveals that age differences reflect differences in the situation of learning rather than in capacity to learn. They do not demonstrate any constraint on the possibility that adults can become highly proficient, even nativelike, speakers of L2s. Researchers, in other words, have often committed the same blunders as members of the general public: misinterpretation of the facts relating to speed of acquisition, misattribution of age differences in language abilities to neurobiological factors, and, most notably, a misemphasis on poor adult learners and an underemphasis on adults who master L2s to nativelike levels. By clarifying these misconceptions, we hope this article will lead to a better understanding of L2 learning and, in turn, better approaches to L2 teaching." 6. Moyer, A. (1999). "Ultimate Attainment in L2 Phonology. The critical factors of age, motivation, and instruction." Studies in Second Language Acquisition 21(1): 81-108. From Abstract "...This study sets out to challenge the Critical Period Hypothesis... ...highly motivated subjects... ...When averaged across all tasks, nonnative speaker performance did not overlap with native performance. However, several variables correlated significantly with outcome, including suprasegmental training, which indicated performance closer to native level." Notes "...that just over half of all respondents confirmed that sounding native was important but not critical. ...that perfect pronunciation was neither realistic nor necessary for overall fluency. ..." (p. 88) "...highly significant correlation for age of immersion (p=.001) and age of instruction (p=.006) with mean rating. These findings confirm previous evidence that biological age holds a constant and significant relationship to outcome" (p. 95). "One continuous variable besides age of immersion did demonstrate directional influence on outcome. Those subjects who were given both suprasegmental and segmental feedback scored closer to native in a predictably constant relationship. (...) The strength of this finding ... suggests the need to reevaluate the current approach (or lack thereof) to phonological training for foreign language learners..." (p. 95) "Theoretical implications: (...) ...that motivation and type of instruction would hold a significant relationship to outcome" (p. 96). "Pedagogical implications: (...) Thus, it sems that the type of feedback, more so than the amount, is significant for acquiring native-level pronunciation" (p. 99) 7. Scovel, T. (1999). Age in second language learning. In: B. Spolsky (Ed.). Concise Encyclopedia of Educational Linguistics. Oxford, Pergamon: 281-84. Notes "The perceived advantage of children is clearly not in their learning rate, but in their ultimate attainment, although even the support for this is quite limited. "...certainly no support that language acquisition is uniquely and adversely affected by old age. "All things being equal, foreign language learning is most efficient and effective after childhood." 8. Sheppard, C., C. Hayashi, et al. (2007). Factors accounting for attainment in foreign language phonological competence. ICPhS XVI, Saarbrücken. Abstract "This paper reports research which first examines the limits in attainment of phonological competence of foreign language learners who have not resided in a target language community, and second, attempts to identify factors which explain variance in this competence. Samples from 67 participants were rated. The results showed that EFL learners were able to attain a near-native like pronunciation for all but sentences. The factors which explained individual difference in pronunciation attainment were self rated musical ability, attitudes toward learning pronunciation, length of time spent learning the language and strategy use." 9. Strange, W., Ed. (1995). Speech Perception and Linguistic Experience. Issues in Cross-Language Research. Baltimore, York Press. Notes It's a fantastic book!; look here at some of the chapter headings (distributed over three "parts"): Part I-Introduction Part II-Linguistic Experience and the Development of Speech Perception Chapter 4 Linguistic experience and the "perceptual magnet effect." -- Patricia K. Kuhl and Paul Iverson Chapter 5 Age-related changes in cross-language speech perception: Standing at the crossroads. -- Janet F. Werker Chapter 6 A direct realist view of cross-language speech perception. -- Catherine T. Best Part III-Speech Perception in Second Language Learning Chapter 8 Second language speech learning: Theory, findings, and problems. -- James E. Flege Chapter 11 Speech perception, language acquisition, and linguistics: Some mutual implications. -- Henning Wode Part IV-Modifying Speech Perception in the Laboratory and Clinic Chapter 12 Methodological issues in training listeners to perceive non-native phonemes. -- John S. Logan and John S. Pruitt Chapter 13 Perception and production of second-language speech sounds by adults. -- Bernard L. Rochet Chapter 15 Variability and invariance in speech perception: A new look at some old problems in perceptual learning. -- David B. Pisoni and Scott E. Lively Part V-Future Directions Chapter 16 Cross-language speech perception: Perspective and promise. -- James J. Jenkins and Grace Yeni-Komshian (see separate reference, #4 above). Final note: Suprasegmentals and prosody are only occasionally mentioned in Strange's book! I wonder how much well-meant research and research-specific "training" is centered on segmentals without due consideration to the more holistic effects of, or relations with, the suprasegmental aspects, and if the validity of such research is compromised in any way by this lack of consideration?? 10. White, L. and F. Genese (1996). "How native is near-native? The issue of ultimate attainment in adult second language acquisition." Second Language Research 12(3): 233-65. From Abstract "...We conclude that native-like competence in an L2 is achievable, even by older L2 learners..." Notes This article only deals with grammar, not pronunciation. Cheers! /Olle Edited by okjhum on 19 October 2012 at 6:04pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 218 of 303 19 October 2012 at 6:01pm | IP Logged | ||
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We don't have to look at hypothetical or contrived examples when all we have to do is look at our native language skills. We can joke, swear and get angry in our language, we can talk about fairy tales or childhood cartoon characters, we can use the language on various social registers, we know what to say in various circumstances. And when we meet another native speaker we immediately have a lot in common. We may be worlds apart socially but we can share a joke. How many adult learners have we met who are able to do all that in our own language?
I know that some people will say that they are not interested in telling jokes or being able to swear in a foreign language. So be it. But my main point, and I think this will be the last time I say this, is that it's not a question of being for or against wanting to come across as a native. Just set your goals and figure out way to reach them 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5382 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 219 of 303 19 October 2012 at 6:14pm | IP Logged | ||
I don't get the big deal with swearing and telling jokes. That's far from the hardest part of any language. It's easy to tell jokes, including play on words, even at the beginner level. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 220 of 303 19 October 2012 at 6:30pm | IP Logged | ||
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Just a quick reaction to the excellent post from @okjhum. I've never been a proponent of the critical hypothesis myself because I believe that circumstances and environment play a bigger role than age itself. And there is no doubt that explicit training can make a big difference in the attainment of native-like pronunciation.
Without having read all the articles referred to in @okjhum's post, I would think that all the evidence points to the importance of massive exposure to the language, and preferably in some immersion setting. Starting at a young age is an important factor because it allows one to grow into the language. Explicit language training is a factor, of course. All of this correlates with what we observe around us and in ourselves. How many of us here at HTLAL can say that we have achieved native-like speaking proficiency in any of our target languages? Some have undoubtedly, but I would suggest that the majority would be hard-pressed to claim they do. But that's not to say that it is impossible. Given the right circumstances, the time and the training, most people could achieve excellent results. So, I come back to the same conclusions that could be nuanced but are simplified here: Is it possible to attain native-like proficiency at an adult age? YES. What is the likelihood of attaining native-life proficiency at an adult age? VERY LOW. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 221 of 303 19 October 2012 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | ||
I'd be curious to see how many people here at HTLAL feel that that it is easy to tell jokes at a beginner level. Understanding jokes is challenging enough, but this is the first time that I've read that telling jokes with puns in a foreign language is easy for beginners. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| petteri Triglot Senior Member Finland Joined 4933 days ago 117 posts - 208 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, Swedish Studies: German, Spanish | Message 222 of 303 19 October 2012 at 7:12pm | IP Logged | ||
I cannot really share proper jokes in any language. But the dry puns of mine work just as badly told in Finnish as in English. My English speech is clumsy, sloppy and sounds awful, some textbook backlashes of non-immersed C1 speaker, but it can carry most context of my thoughts. But just most, my biggest flaws are in the ability to express my true feelings and in everyday speech. Edited by petteri on 19 October 2012 at 7:15pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 223 of 303 19 October 2012 at 7:33pm | IP Logged | ||
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While thinking about this question of jokes and swearing in a foreign language, I realized that I had forgotten to raise the subject of idioms, collocations and metaphors that native speakers use all the time. We hear this all the time and especially advertising and political speeches. Just this morning I heard on the news that Google had "let the cat out of the bag" when they released financial information by accident. And then "$20 billion went up in smoke."
2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 224 of 303 19 October 2012 at 9:19pm | IP Logged | ||
And what I absolutely don't understand is why s_allard says it's almost impossible to reach a native-like proficiency because it's difficult to swear, tell jokes etc. Just wtf??? Of course it can be difficult (or easy), but just because it's easier for teenagers to repeat the swear words they've heard or translate a joke from their native language without worrying whether it's appropriate... this doesn't put adults at a disadvantage!!! Pronunciation can certainly be easier to learn for children, and maybe grammar too (though adults should be better at learning the grammar formally), but jokes? Was this a joke? And of course I have to add that telling jokes is easier than understanding them XD you can create one even with a small vocabulary, and it might be a bit lame (but possibly more enjoyable for a native than if another native told him this), but this absolutely won't guarantee that you can understand any joke you hear or even 10% of them. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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