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Can adult learners achieve native levels? | ||
Tags: Native Fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| atama warui Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 4702 days ago 594 posts - 985 votes  Speaks: German*, English, Japanese | Message 17 of 303 01 October 2012 at 2:36pm | IP Logged | ||
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Richard Simcott sounds like "a German from somewhere else in Germany" for my ear. If he gets rid of his bad habit of inserting fillers all the time, he can pass as a native speaker.
That alone is enough evidence for me to believe it'`s possible to achieve native-like pronunciation. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 18 of 303 01 October 2012 at 2:45pm | IP Logged | ||
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Lol, my German friend was like "wir sprechen überhaupt durchaus mit Füllwörter" (or
something to that effect) and actually told me to use more fillers when I speak German. This was especially important as I was speaking German colloquially Edited by tarvos on 01 October 2012 at 2:46pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 19 of 303 01 October 2012 at 4:51pm | IP Logged | ||
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Is it possible to achieve native-like proficiency in a foreign language at an adult age? Maybe. I really don't know. What we do know is that it's just extremely rare for adult learners to say that they have attained that level of proficiency.
If we define native-like proficiency as that of an individual that resembles the learner in terms of age, educational background, social class, etc. the chances of an adult attaining that kind of proficiency are extremely remote for a simple reason. The amount of accumulated exposure of the native speaker can not be reproduced, even in a condensed form, by the learner. Consider a 25 year-old native speaker who may have 16 years of formal schooling, has looked at 1000's of hours of television and movies, read a hundred books, heard how many 1000's of hours of spoken language and, finally, has spoken over 10,000 hours of that language from the earliest age. Think of the linguistic baggage that this person has. I don't think any of us have any illusions about being able to reproduce this. What qualifies for "native-like" around here is really pronunciation. If you sound like a native, for most people you qualify as a native. Now this is hard enough, but some people are very good mimics. So, in that sense, I think it's doable, although quite rare. But that's not the same as having native-like overall proficiency. I must add that I'm of the school of thought that believes that perfect pronunciation is neither necessary nor desirable. I'm not saying that mangling the language is good. I just think that grammar and vocabulary are much more important and that a little accent may be a good thing. EDIT: changes "100's of years" to "1000's of hours" Edited by s_allard on 01 October 2012 at 5:41pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| DaraghM Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 6152 days ago 1947 posts - 2923 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Russian, Hungarian | Message 20 of 303 01 October 2012 at 5:12pm | IP Logged | ||
If I looked at 1000's of years of television, I'd be fluent in every language. :-) 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4623 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 21 of 303 01 October 2012 at 5:13pm | IP Logged | ||
Agreed. People place far too much importance on trying to speak without a discernible accent in the hope that one day someone will mistake them for a native speaker because they sound like one. To me, that seems like a waste of resources and it would be far better actually improving your spoken command of a language rather than trying to mimic every nuance of a native speaker's pitch and tone. I once had a visitor from Germany who claimed she had been mistaken for an English native. That I can believe as she produced a pretty good approximation of a Home Counties accent. Thing is, there were major gaps in her vocabulary and I think it would have been better to fill these rather than trying to train your vocal chords to make you sound like someone you are not. Of course, pronunciation should be at least close to the accepted sound, but unless you are an undercover spy, it isn't necessary to erase all traces of what you perceive to be an accent. People expect foreigners to sound a little funny. I know I can go to Germany and get almost anything I want from the hardware store....I really don't care whether or not the sales assistant thinks I'm German. Edited by beano on 01 October 2012 at 5:20pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5382 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 22 of 303 01 October 2012 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | ||
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I am convinced that some people can learn to reach near-native level as an adult. Actually, I know this as a fact.
I am also convinced that some people simply CANNOT. As for the people in between, I'm much less convinced that determination and desire alone are sufficient to do so. I think a certain dose of talent or intelligence is required. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 23 of 303 01 October 2012 at 5:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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They certainly can.
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 24 of 303 01 October 2012 at 5:39pm | IP Logged | ||
1 person has voted this message useful |
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