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the old man and the platiquemos | ||
Tags: Platiquemos | Spanish | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Valy Newbie France Joined 4347 days ago 39 posts - 47 votes Speaks: French* Studies: English, German, Spanish, Mandarin | Message 81 of 91 02 March 2013 at 3:24pm | IP Logged |
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I really enjoy reading your log, Sfuqua. All your remarks are so interesting! You've already done a great work
! Like Iguanamon and many others, I want you to succeed and I'm sure you will ! 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| sfuqua Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4764 days ago 581 posts - 977 votes  Speaks: English*, Hawaiian, Tagalog Studies: Spanish | Message 82 of 91 07 March 2013 at 6:13am | IP Logged |
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FSI Unit 13 near the end of the opening dialog.
Well... I didn't really do FSI/Plati for about a week. I did spend an hour on Spanish each day. One of the things I did is pretty open ended; I tried Listening/Reading google news in Spanish. How did I do that? Through the magic of IVONA tts software. IVONA software, with one voice (they have many; I prefer Penelope, so far), costs about $100, and they offer a 30 day trial. I did it this way... Copy a copy of the article into IVONA reader and produce an mp3 through tts. Copy the article into google translate and get an (often very flawed) translation. Paste the article and the translation on to a file. Then go through the usual L/R steps: 1) Read the English translation silently. 2) Follow the Spanish while listening to the Spanish 3) Follow the English while listening to the Spanish 3X 4) Read the Spanish aloud (I never see this step in the descriptions, but it seems logical to me). 5) Shadow the Spanish while reading the Spanish (until I can keep up). 6) Shadow articles from earlier days. The TTS software is not exactly the same as a human, but Penelope speaks with an accent that is better than mine, so I am improving myself trying to copy her. I wish I could do tongue twisters as well as she can :) She will also say outrageous things if you are immature enough to feed her outrageous things to read... I know some people hate TTS software, but I like it. It is much better than bothering a friend. Some people hate google translate, but I like it. The problems with the flawed English translations they give are easy to recognize, and in some ways they are better than a more idiomatic translation would be for L/R. The google translation tends to closely follow the word order of the Spanish, which helps if you are trying to read along in English with the voice in Spanish... A few days of this have restored my interest in doing FSI lessons. I rolled through the rest of Unit 12 in a day when I started again. I also experimented with reviewing earlier lessons by simply reading the Spanish in them; this seems to work pretty well to remember the main points of the lesson, and it is much faster than trying to redo the lesson. I think I'm going to start reading an earlier lesson after I complete each new lesson. For now, I'm dropping Programmatic Spanish; I think it might have been more useful at an earlier point in my learning. I think it might be a good way for a complete beginner to ramp up to FSI/Plati I'm going to keep on with FSI and take time off from it whenever I feel like it to do other stuff. If I actually buy IVONA, the whole Internet is there to L/R and shadow... It's been a strange week in the rest of my life, a son's 21st birthday, the death of an friend, a crisis at work, and a sick (minor illness) daughter. I find that FSI drills are intolerable when I can't focus on them, whereas something like L/R can work (at least a bit), even if there are other things on my mind or I'm a bit tired. I'm not going to fall into the trap again of forcing myself to try to do FSI drills when I don't feel like it. I've been using the original FSI tapes a little more, lately, than the Platiquemos version. I ran audacity on it and slowed down the first 30 units to 90% of regular speed. If Don Casteel can do it, I don't see why I can't. This leaves the other problem that many people have with FSI, the accent. A Cuban (I guess that's what the accent of the speakers is) accent is a bit alien sounding to those of us who live in a part of the US where most Spanish speakers are Mexican, but I would love speak with a Cuban (or any other accent) well enough that people could recognize what flavor of Spanish I was targeting... Nobody thinks I'm Cuban :( steve Edited by sfuqua on 07 March 2013 at 6:16am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| sfuqua Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4764 days ago 581 posts - 977 votes Speaks: English*, Hawaiian, Tagalog Studies: Spanish | Message 83 of 91 10 March 2013 at 8:04am | IP Logged |
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I'm about 2/3 or the way through Unit 13. I seem to be moving steadily through FSI Spanish without any problem.
I think that one of the variables in language learning that affects me a lot is how tired I am. If I'm rested, language learning is a blast; otherwise I'm a dummy. I've also figured out that if I pace around the room, stand up, or at least sit up straight and pretend to be rested, I do better than if collapse on my bed and try to do FSI lying down... It's pretty obvious, but Mom was right; I should sit up straight. FSI drills continue to work. I'm making so much improvement that I wonder how bad my Spanish was before I started. I'm pretty happy at this point. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| dbag Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5021 days ago 605 posts - 1046 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 84 of 91 10 March 2013 at 12:32pm | IP Logged |
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That's an interesting observation. I found that doing drills sitting down killed me full stop. I would get bored very quickly and struggle as a consequence. However, if I was driving,walking, or cleaning the house etc. I could comfortably do them for hours on end.
It reminds me of Prof, A. talking about shadowing while walking at a brisk pace. Well done on your continued progress by the way. Things should start to pick up soon as your not far away from dealing with the past tenses. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| sfuqua Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4764 days ago 581 posts - 977 votes Speaks: English*, Hawaiian, Tagalog Studies: Spanish | Message 85 of 91 16 March 2013 at 5:29am | IP Logged |
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I've had a rough few days for language learning; many other responsibilities kept getting in the way of my daily FSI routine. I almost find myself wishing for a long commute, so that I can get some uninterrupted time. I still haven't quite killed the last part of Unit 13. I should be working on it now, but I've poured the wine for the family for this evening, and it's time to start the weekend.
I set up IVONA's Penélope to do a slowly read audiobook version of La reina del Sur. If you've read some of my earlier postings, you know that I have a crush on Teresa Mendoza. I have read the book in English; I've watched each of the episodes of the telenovela several times, and it was a copy of the novel in Spanish that first gave me the idea that learning Spanish might be just the pastime I was looking for. A year and four months ago, I looked at that novel and thought to myself, "wouldn't it be great if I could speak a little Spanish and read well enough to read this novel." Well, I speak a little Spanish. My Spanish speaking students, who care at all, seem to really appreciate my efforts. La reina del Sur is still over my head; there is too much vocabulary, but I could try L-R for it... I have copies of the book in English and in Spanish; I now have a slowly and clearly read audiobook of it. I've fooled around with reading the book several times, and I've fooled around with L-R before. I tried working through a little bit of it tonight, treating a page of it more as an Assimil passive wave lesson than as a full blown L-R session. Tonight it seemed to work more or less the way that the Assimil passive wave does. I started off listening while reading it in Spanish, to see what the sounds look like. Next I listened while reading it in English a few times to see what the sounds mean. Then I tried going through it one sentence at a time, pausing after each sentence reading the sentence aloud. Then I read it aloud, and finally shadowed it. This didn't take very long. Just as in an Assimil passive wave lesson, I started off not understanding well at all, and ended up a few minutes later reading it aloud with pretty complete understanding. Just as with Assimil, it feels too easy, and I'm not sure if I could apply what I learned, but, you know what? I already ran across one of the words I "learned," and I understood it. I think this might be a pretty painless way to build up passive skills. Maybe I'll keep up with La Reina whenever I feel like it, as I keep plugging away at FSI. I'm getting close to a fourth of the way through. L-R certainly could be a pleasant way keep working on Spanish after FSI is finished, and it is a nice break from what FSI drills. Penelope has also done audiobooks for me of Inés del alma Mio, Cien Años, and Don Quixote. I saw my sentence up above, and I have to chuckle "after FSI is finished." After FSI is finished; I've got a long way to go to get there. I'm trying not to obsess about finishing it; I don't want to get discouraged because it is taking too long or rush through just to finish it. I don't know if anyone agrees, but it seems to me as if Listening-Reading (or an "Assimil Passive Wave" version) is a perfect adjunct to FSI. It expands passive skills and vocabulary without too much trouble, and it isn't very hard (unless you do it all day, like the real "listening-learning" technique). Thanks for all the support, dbag, James29, emk, Iguanamon; obviously FSI isn't the only answer, but I think it does provide concentrated practice for those of us who don't get enough native speaker interaction. steve 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| James29 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5374 days ago 1265 posts - 2113 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French | Message 86 of 91 17 March 2013 at 11:30pm | IP Logged |
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Yeah, supplementing FSI with something "fun" is a good idea. I found I could rarely do more than four days of FSI in any given week. Even then, I would need to take a few weeks off every now and then. Supplementing it with an easy audio book is fun and helps with vocabulary.
I finished La Reina del Sur a few weeks ago and am missing it a bit... especially when I read your last post. I too read the book in English. I had the exact same plan to LR the book. When I saw that there was a Spanish audio book I went crazy trying to find it. Eventually, I actually found someone in Ecuador who had the Spanish audio book and I was all excited to use it. Unfortunately, the quality of the "audio book" isn't that great and I never used it. It sounds like it might even be text to voice. Are you going to do another telenovela? If so, you may want to try El Capo. It is great and I am enjoying it more than La Reina del Sur. It is easier to follow because the plot is much simpler. It is extremely suspenseful. And, the character Marcela is just as adorable as Teresa (or my favorite, Veronica) from La Reina del Sur. Edited by James29 on 17 March 2013 at 11:30pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| VivianJ5 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 4261 days ago 81 posts - 133 votes Speaks: English*, French | Message 87 of 91 27 March 2013 at 9:45pm | IP Logged |
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Hi Steve, just wanted to let you know that your Spanish learning log is inspiring me to pick up the Spanish that I
dropped back in university many moons ago. I already speak French, so I'm thinking that'll be some help in figuring out how the language works. Which was actually the problem when I tried it 30 years ago: my classes in French and Italian, combined with the ungodly early morning hour of the Spanish 1 class, meant that I was always responding in the wrong Romance language. Such problems... I know I have a tendency to get discouraged easily if I don't make regular progress, so I'm reassured that you've persevered through your periods of "blah-ness." Looking forward to more updates! 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| sfuqua Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4764 days ago 581 posts - 977 votes Speaks: English*, Hawaiian, Tagalog Studies: Spanish | Message 88 of 91 28 March 2013 at 10:34pm | IP Logged |
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Yes VivianJ5 and James29, it is time for an update.
I've slowed down a lot in FSI; I'll probably finish Unit 14 in another couple of days. I got seduced by reading. I made an inventory of what I had available to read in both Spanish and English, on my shelf, at the local bookstore, and at the library. I also looked for what I could either find or make an audiobook for. I discovered I have many choices. I've been trying to alternate days between reading (sort of doing an Assimil passive wave through a novel) and doing FSI. I find the two go together great: FSI is very focused, concentrating on one thing at a time. It forces one to pay attention to all the details, concentrating on little parts of the language. What I don't like about it is that it is easy to forget the parts of the language that you are not studying. I bet I'm weaker in the past tense now than I was when I started FSI; it hasn't come up that much. FSI also makes me want to review so that I don't forget what I've already learned. If you try keep all of the language that you have covered in your head you will never make any progress in the course. FSI can also be discouraging because it is so big. It seems to take forever to get through it. It's a little discouraging to think how long it will be before I get to some of the parts of the language that I am very weak in, such as the subjunctive. If I'm going to have to complete FSI before I can say that I speak Spanish, I've got a long way to go. I'm going to call reading through a novel a chunk at a time with a translation and an audiobook "Reading-Listening". I know that Listening Reading is something else; I doubt that I will ever have a few days where I can spend several hours a day studying, so I don't think that "traditional" L-R is appropriate. However I can spend an hour working over a passage and reviewing earlier ones, sort of like I did in the old days on an Assimil passive wave. Reading Listening a novel has an opposite set of strengths and weaknesses. The study emphasizes vocabulary and is very unfocused on grammar. You can read, understand, and repeat without mastering many of the details of the language. You get exposure to "all the language" every day. Doing R-L allows you to learn a lot of grammar and, especially, vocabulary without really noticing it. There isn't really much motivation to review, since anything that is important will come up again. There isn't really any rush to get through the material, since you are reading novel that is fun to read anyway. There isn't really any big rush to try to "finish FSI so I'll know Spanish", since I am already immersed in the Spanish world of the novel. I've been doing variations off of the Assimil "Dutch" instructions: 1. Listen to the text with the book closed. 2. Listen to the recording while looking at the English translation. 3. Read the Target Language (TL) text aloud. Be sure you understand the meaning of each sentence. 4. Now read the TL text without looking at the translation. 5. Listen to the recording twice, once while looking at the English translation, and once while looking at the TL text. 6. Listen to the recording with the book closed. At this point you should understand what is being said (changed)7.Listen to the recording once more. Stop the machine after each sentence, and try to read it aloud. (changed)8. Shadow several recent lessons up to the current one. A similar, but simpler way to do this might be: 1) Listen to the passage while reading first English, then Spanish, until it is as easy to understand the Spanish as it is to understand the English. 2) Shadow the passage while reading first with the Spanish then blind shadowing until it is as easy to blind shadow as it is to shadow with the Spanish. I'm pretty happy with this mix. steve 1 person has voted this message useful |
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