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the old man and the platiquemos | ||
Tags: Platiquemos | Spanish | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| sfuqua Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4764 days ago 581 posts - 977 votes  Speaks: English*, Hawaiian, Tagalog Studies: Spanish | Message 57 of 91 21 January 2013 at 5:55am | IP Logged | ||
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Platiquemos/FSI Unit 9 about halfway done with the opening dialog.
I do hate winter. Here in the Northern Hemisphere, it is the cold and flu season. I got really sick for a while. I'm back now, mostly. I cruised through Unit 8 with no big problem. Actually, it was quite enjoyable. I'm obviously getting better and better at doing FSI drills. The radio is clearer than ever. I started working through a "5000 most common words in Spanish" list with Ankidroid. I haven't found learning vocabulary in isolation very useful before, but I hope this won't take very long each day, and I can do it in time which would be wasted otherwise. I hope that I will run into enough of the words from this list that they will stick. In any case, a little SRS won't hurt. I've been working through the material using my "rewind a minute" method. I find it better to rewind a minute than to repeat an entire drill if I make a mistake. Some of the hardest stuff takes me 6 or 7 times through. I go through most things two or three times. A few things I roll right through. I've been rewinding a minute, since most models of memory that contain a "short term memory" component say that short term memory decays after about 30 seconds without rehearsal. Rewinding, and doing a minute of drills ( 30 seconds should be enough) leading up to the point where I made a mistake, prevents me from rehearsing. This way, when I hit the error again, I have to figure it out afresh, with only the help of "what's in long term memory." Of course, there are other models of memory that reject the whole dichotomy of short and long term memory. There is another way of looking at rewinding. People have set different standards for how accurate one should be at a part of FSI before you call it learned. A few have said "perfect" but this seems pretty ridiculous. Others have said something like 90% or 95%. Pimsleur, with its related theory of language learning, suggests that 80% accuracy is enough. What does this mean in terms the rate of errors you can make and still hit 80%, 90%, or 95%? A quick run through Unit 3 of FSI with audacity shows that FSI asks you to respond about 12 times a minute. The typical FSI drill pattern is like this: FSI prompts You answer FSI confirms/corrects You repeat the correct answer This means that half of your responses are simply repeating the confirmation/correction FSI gave you. You actually are creating an answer only half the time. So this means 6 answers a minute, or one every 10 seconds. This also means 80% accuracy would allow one error every 50 seconds; 90% accuracy would mean one error every 100 seconds, and 95% accuracy means one error every 200 seconds. Rather than repeating a given drill over and over until you reach a certain level of accuracy over the whole thing, you could rewind a certain number of seconds, and thereby assure that, at least for each span of the drill required, you have reached the correct level. It would force you to spend more time on the things that are hard and less time on the easy things. This is better, in my opinion, than drilling easy things over and over just because they happen to be in a drill that contains something hard. Rewinding does make you redo easy things that happen to come in the interval just before a hard thing. Repeating a minute of a drill is better than repeating a whole 5 minute drill (or a 30 minute Pimsleur lesson!). This way you cover the entire drill with overlapping intervals at the requireed level of accuracy. I know that I'm just playing with numbers, but I find this way of working with audio drills to be useful... I'm going to keep rewinding a minute on each error; this puts me at an accuracy level better than Pimsleur, less than some of the quoted accuracy standards for FSI. When I do a review wave later, perhaps I'll rewind 2 minutes on each error, or something. Three minutes rewind puts me near the 95% level. If you count the whole "repeat the confirmation" stage of each answer, then the resind time needed for each standard is cut in half, of course. I'm on the last unit of Platiquemos level 1, the place where I said I would evaluate whether I want to continue FSI. The answer is an enthusiastic yes! FSI appears to be everything promised. I have, however, a long, long way to go. steve 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Rout Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5711 days ago 326 posts - 417 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish Studies: Hindi | Message 58 of 91 21 January 2013 at 6:53am | IP Logged | ||
Just thought I'd point out that Pimsleur only requires 80% accuracy because review is built into the course by means of Dr. Pimsleur's graduated interval recall. It's like the drills of FSI combined with the spaced repetition science of Anki! =) Just doesn't go far enough, hehe. I'm actually pretty convinced that Pimsleur doesn't want you to have 100% accuracy, especially on listening comprehension, since this might encourage "over-analyzing" and discourage "getting-the-gist" when you graduate to real-life conversations. They've got the psychology worked out too. Edited by Rout on 21 January 2013 at 6:56am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| sfuqua Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4764 days ago 581 posts - 977 votes Speaks: English*, Hawaiian, Tagalog Studies: Spanish | Message 59 of 91 21 January 2013 at 4:17pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yes, Pimsleur has the graduated recall interval. FSI reviews occasionally, but it doesn't seem to be as systematic as Pimsleur. Maybe I'm just not conscious of it. I definitely need to review FSI lessons myself. FSI is harder/faster than Pimsleur. I think I remember that Pimsleur requires an "answer" every 15 seconds as opposed to FSI's 10 seconds.
I think I'm over analyzing :) I feel like I learn a lot rewinding a minute. I do complete the lesson perfectly in overlapping 1 minute intervals. Rewinding further would be slower and harder and probably lead to deeper learning. steve edited to fix spelling Edited by sfuqua on 30 January 2013 at 4:51am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| sfuqua Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4764 days ago 581 posts - 977 votes Speaks: English*, Hawaiian, Tagalog Studies: Spanish | Message 60 of 91 28 January 2013 at 5:58am | IP Logged | ||
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I'm bogging down a bit in unit 9. I keep making "dumb" mistakes, which really is a way of saying that I have trouble keeping up with the tape. It's just a matter of speed. I think I'm going to just keep chugging along in low gear. I've bounced around back and forth between Plati and FSI during the drills, and I don't really have a preference for the drills in either one. I've been having less fun on the lessons lately. I'm hoping for a nice, mindless substitution drill soon, so I can feel like I am smart. It is a little frustrating I'm not moving faster.
I have been working with a big word list on anki. It is one I made from the 10000 most frequent words from subtitles wiki. Anki gave me fits trying to get the file to randomize, but I think I corrupted the database on my computer, and it straightened out once I changed my user profile. I don't really believe in memorizing word lists without using the words, but it doesn't really take very long. The 10000 "words" contain different inflected forms of a word, so it probably is similar to a 4000/5000 word list of root words. I like including the inflected forms; it may help with irregular verbs and the like. I've got an even bigger word list from Chile, that includes mostly written sources, which I would like to turn into an anki deck also. I don't want to emphasize anki at this point. I'm pretty sure that if I don't use the words or encounter them in my reading, they won't stick. I mentioned earlier that I've put images Kate del Castillo and Ximena Navarrete as album covers. This might seem to be just a silly, immature thing to do, but I actually think it helps me keep trying when a given drill is giving me a hard time. Let's say I'm grinding away at a drill, making the same mistake over and over, even though I understand it, and have paused the thing to practice, but I just can't keep up... I start to get frustrated and get ready to throw my clunky android phone against the wall, and... I look at the screen and see lovely Ximena smiling on the screen, a vision of youth and beauty. I smile back, and then I try the drill again. If it ever looks like she is smiling, mocking me, I will know that I am in trouble and that I need to do something else. I hope that after I finish Platiquemos/FSI, I will be B1 or so in productive skills. I also hope that I will be able to read La Reina del Sur with a dictionary, but without much pain. I haven't been able to do much telenovela watching lately; the girls in my family have discovered "Charmed" reruns on netflix, and it is hard to get some TV time. I have the radio on the Spanish station the whole time that I'm in the car these days. The one clear impact that I can see from Plati/FSI is that the speakers on the radio are definitely speaking more clearly and slowly than before. I have a long way to go, but I'm still going. steve edited to fix spelling Edited by sfuqua on 28 January 2013 at 6:02am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| sfuqua Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4764 days ago 581 posts - 977 votes Speaks: English*, Hawaiian, Tagalog Studies: Spanish | Message 61 of 91 28 January 2013 at 11:56pm | IP Logged | ||
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Maybe I'm going to start doing a 2 or 3 phrase approach to each track. First with the book and the pause button, then with the pause button only, and finally at full speed with no pause.
I find that there is a high level of concentration and attention needed when working at full speed on these courses. It's extra hard to do when tired. Completing the lesson at full speed does mean that the material is well learned... I'm simultaneously eager to move ahead and get the course done, and I'm also eager to be sure that I thoroughly learn any material I cover and that I review thoroughly. All I need is about 4 hours a day to work on Spanish instead of the hour or so I have now... steve 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| cwcowellshah Newbie United States Joined 4378 days ago 34 posts - 52 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Swedish | Message 62 of 91 29 January 2013 at 12:08am | IP Logged | ||
For sure. As I've been going through Pimsleur Swedish I've felt like my brain was sweating due to the concentration involved. I know exactly what you mean. And FSI is supposed to be a lot faster and denser than Pimsleur. No pain, no gain, I suppose. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| sfuqua Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4764 days ago 581 posts - 977 votes Speaks: English*, Hawaiian, Tagalog Studies: Spanish | Message 63 of 91 30 January 2013 at 4:49am | IP Logged | ||
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Platiquemos/FSI Unit 10 right at the start
I finished unit 9 today; it was hard slog. Today was easy. I think my main problem was fatigue. I've been trying to work late in the day, when I was already too tired. For me, trying to slog through FSI drills while sleepy is almost useless. I would do better to take a nap, and try again if the time isn't up. I don't see what was so hard about this Unit. Anyway level 1 is done :) Only 7 more to go :( Ximena still smiles sweetly when I open the program, so I guess I'm still good for the rest of the course. I expected to move a little faster, but this is reality, I guess. My grades for my students for the first semester are finished too. I wonder if there is some way I can work my FSI into my morning schedule before I head to work. steve edited to correct the number of the unit I completed Edited by sfuqua on 30 January 2013 at 4:53am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| sfuqua Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4764 days ago 581 posts - 977 votes Speaks: English*, Hawaiian, Tagalog Studies: Spanish | Message 64 of 91 01 February 2013 at 5:31am | IP Logged | ||
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Unit 10, right at the start of the "dialog for fluency."
I'm thinking about just repeating the sentences during the dialog for fluency. I just hate memorizing those things. I know it is part of the method, but I feel like the drills are more important, and I find it hard to spend the time it takes to memorize the dialogs. It seems to be taking me about 6 times through the material lately to get it all correct; this seems like a lot, but I guess it is similar to what some of the other people have needed. I'm going to see if I can make a big push over the weekend and get most of the way through this unit. The original FSI tapes seem to only use the tape to get students so they can repeat the lines in the dialog. Of course I remember the comment that about half of the time in class was spent on the dialogs. I spent some much time overlearning Assimil, with little effect on my fluency, that I'm a little reluctant to memorize dialogs. Learning the words; learning what they mean and being able to repeat the lines, yes. Reciting the dialog from top to bottom, I wonder... Maybe I'm just being lazy. I fooled around with different downloaded decks on anki, but I've finally settled on a deck I built myself. I built a 15000 word deck with a "Chilean word list" I tried merging 10000 words from subtitles, but I was getting too many duplicates. The 15000 word Chilean list seems to have more a literary/newspaper background than the subtitle list. The list has many proper nouns, many simple cognates, and many closely related words; quiero and quiere are listed as separate words, for instance. I would imagine that there are about 5000 actual "words" in the list. I figure that the few minutes a day I spend getting these into my passive knowledge, while I continue on with Platiquemos, will be time well spent. Let's see 15000/20 =750. So, two years from now, I'll be a C2 in "Chilean Spanish," at least for passive knowledge. I know it's not that simple, but maybe this will help me take off reading once I've finished Plati. steve edited to fix crummy spelling Edited by sfuqua on 01 February 2013 at 2:48pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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