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Frence sentence with "boire" | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4911 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 17 of 21 14 December 2012 at 9:39pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Much of this thread is going way above my head now, and I'd like to take a closer look at
it a bit later. But perhaps someone could tackle this problem I've come across in Pimsleur French II (unit 5). They talk about some guy ("Peter Johnson" I believe), who enters the room, and then one of them says, "C'est un amie à moi". Why "c'est" and not "il est"???? There is another similar example later in French II, but this is one I heard again this evening when reviewing. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5534 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 18 of 21 14 December 2012 at 10:46pm | IP Logged | |||||
Excellent question! You use c'est here because it's followed by an article and a noun (un ami). Here's a really great explanation of the relevant rules. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5432 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 19 of 21 15 December 2012 at 4:48am | IP Logged | |||||
I beg to differ with @emk's explanation. In the example in question "Il est un ami à moi" and "c'est un ami à moi" are equally grammatically acceptable. But there are nuances of meaning. If you look at the rules on the website indicated, you see the following explanation for using "c'est/ce sont" and "il est/ ils sont." when referring to people: "There is a determining word in front of the nationality and therefore you have to use "ce sont". This situation happens frequently with nationalities, professions or religions: Compare - C'est un professeur with Il est professeur." Notice that the rule says "...with nationalities, professions or religions.." To come back to @jeffers example, "ami" does not enter into one of these categories. Forms like "il est ami." or "elle est fille très jolie" by themselves are unacceptable or rare. So we can use "c'est un ami" or "c'est une fille très jolie" / c'est une très jolie fille." But we can also say "il est un ami" and "elle est une très jolie fille". But there is a difference. First, if you reads the rules, it is pointed out that the spoken language tends to favour "c'est" over "il est". In fact, contrary to the rules, one does hear forms like "c'est trois heures" instead of "il est trois heures". Second, there is a semantic difference between "c'est un ami à moi" and "il est un ami à moi." In the first I'm stating the existence of a friend of mine (there exists a friend of mine). In the second I'm saying that this person is a friend of mine (he is a friend of mine). This may sound like splitting hairs, and it is, but it is a nuance that determines the choice of the form that one uses. When someone asks "Qui est au téléphone ?" (Who is on the phone?), the natural answer is "c'est..." because we want to say, "it's ..." In the example under discussion here, if the person had been clearly identified earlier in the conversation, one could have just as easily said. "il est un ami à moi". And this is the nuance. "il est" in this case refers to a specific person whereas "c'est" is stating an observation of existence. This nuance is very apparent when we hear forms with a subject added on the end, something that is very common in the spoken language. Compare the following forms: c'est bon, ce vin. il est bon, ce vin c'est mignon, ce garçon il est mignon, ce garçon c'est bon, cette tarte elle est bonne, cette tarte These forms are sort of interchangeable, but not totally. "C'est mignon, ce garçon" and "il est mignon, ce garçon" are not exactly the same. As has been noted, "c'est" is generally speaking more widespread than "il est" We know for example that in the formal or administrative language, "il est" is used for the so called impersonal forms, e.g. il est rappelé aux voyageurs de se présenter une heure d'avance..." (Travelers are reminded to arrive an hour in advance...). But most of the time, people will use "c'est" unless "il est" is specifically called for. Edited by s_allard on 15 December 2012 at 7:33pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5534 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 20 of 21 15 December 2012 at 6:08am | IP Logged | |||||
Thank you. This is the key point here, and I was oversimplifying. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4911 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 21 of 21 15 December 2012 at 3:33pm | IP Logged | |||||
The website looks useful, but I can hardly look at it with that awful bright yellow background. I might just copy the text off to Word or something. Thanks to both of you for answering! 1 person has voted this message useful |
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