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Germanic Gender (across the family) | ||
Tags: Germanic Languages | Gender | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4846 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes  Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 9 of 17 13 December 2012 at 1:35pm | IP Logged | ||
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I have thought of this, but I'm not aware of the existence of the word "katta" in Icelandic - and neither is my dictionary. "Köttur" refers to the species "cat" and not only to male cats, just as "Katze" doesn't exclusively refer to female cats.
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| daegga Tetraglot Senior Member Austria lang-8.com/553301 Joined 4523 days ago 1076 posts - 1792 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, Norwegian Studies: Danish, French, Finnish, Icelandic | Message 10 of 17 13 December 2012 at 2:15pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'm not sure if they are cognates at all because the word is of Latin origin (and thus loaned)
so for Icelandic: cattus (m.) > *kattuz > *kattuR > köttr > köttur for German: catta (f.) > *katta > ahd. *kazza (?) > mhd. katze for Kater somehow from lat. cattus to mhd. katere/kater (or maybe from catta > *katta with some masculine suffix?) Icelandic ketta (f.) must be the cognate to German Katze, if it's a cognate. But it seems rather like a late loan to me, because Icelandic -a goes back to a long o in Proto-Norse, a short a would have been elided. Edited by daegga on 13 December 2012 at 2:43pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| limey75 Senior Member United Kingdom germanic.eu/ Joined 4401 days ago 119 posts - 182 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Norwegian, Old English | Message 11 of 17 13 December 2012 at 9:53pm | IP Logged | ||
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The word for the "sun" I believe is grammatically feminine in most (all?) Germanic languages, it certainly is in Old English, German and Norwegian anyway (solen exists but I believe sola is now preferred).
"Moon" on the other hand is masc in German, either masc or fem in Old English, and "common" in Norwegian. In later poetic English, I believe the opposite is the case - the sun is tradtionally masculine and the moon traditionally feminine. But this was in a time when English had long since done away with its grammatical genders. "Cow" is fem in OE, German and Norwegian, and one would expect it to be in all the other Germanic varieties. Single syllable words are quite often neuter in OE - scip, land, - but there are many exceptions, e.g. "book" is feminine in OE, while it is neuter in German. German is going to throw up some problems for you though, e.g. das Mädchen. From what I remember, what holds true in OE also basically holds true in Old Norse, but don't quote me on that. The same I think can be said for Old Saxon. For Gothic, I can't comment. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4670 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 12 of 17 13 December 2012 at 11:16pm | IP Logged | ||
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German ''das Mädchen'' is not a problem.
It is similar to Dutch ''het meisje'' (also neutrum because it's a diminutive form). Norwegian has masculine words for most Latin-imported and French-imported vocabulary (in both Nynorsk and Bokmaal); that's why die Schule is skolen (B) - skulen (N) and not skola, skula...(One of the exception to the rule: route which can be feminine in Bokmaal and is obligatory feminine in Nynorsk: ruten/ruta (B) ~ ruta (N)). dialect: der Dialekt / die Mundart in German het dialekt in Dutch dialekten in Bokmaal, dialekta (or dialekten) in Nynorsk nose: die Nase in German de neus (m). in Dutch nesen/nesa in Bokmaal; nasen (or nosa) in Nynorsk carpet: der Teppich in German het tapijt in Dutch teppet (n). in Norwegian feast: das Fest in German het feest in Dutch festen in Norwegian (Latin-imported (via French), and therefore masculine) [Differences between genders in Nynorsk and Bokmaal can be significant enough to give headache to students writing an essay in another standard language. For example, one of the most common mistakes: writing nasa (feminine) in Nynorsk or writing dialekta (feminine) in Bokmaal. ;) For Nynorsk-users, it's easier, they can avoid feminine when writing Bokmaal (neutrum nouns don't vary between Nynorsk/Bokmaal and dialects).] ;) PS The Moon is not ''common'' in Norwegian, but masculine, in both Nynorsk and Bokmål: Månen. (''common'' is used for words which can be both feminine and masculine in Bokmål, for example Sola/Solen ''the Sun'', Jorda/Jorden ''the Earth'') Edited by Medulin on 14 December 2012 at 12:10am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| limey75 Senior Member United Kingdom germanic.eu/ Joined 4401 days ago 119 posts - 182 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Norwegian, Old English | Message 13 of 17 14 December 2012 at 4:01am | IP Logged | ||
Interesting. I was taught differently, i.e. that any noun in -en was "common" gender, whereas nouns in -et were neuter. But I admit fem nouns in -a do complicate this picture. But there are supposedly not many of them compared to -en nouns. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4670 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 14 of 17 14 December 2012 at 11:19am | IP Logged | ||
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Yes, this is because ''newer'' loans (newer in this case may mean the last 500 years) are rarely feminine, so while Republik and Arterie are feminine in German (the original Latin gender was preserved), they are masculine in Norwegian...While the % of feminines in German is around 35%, in Norwegian it's never more than 18-20% in Nynorsk and radical Bokmaal.
In Bokmaal the feminine/masculine gender difference (for common gender words) can be used for stylistic purpose. I've seen ''dronninga'' used more for the Swedish queen in Bokmaal newspapers than for the Norwegian queen. ;) Dronninga (f) used for the Norwegian queen: http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/02/07/nyheter/blotting/innenrik s/dronning_sonja/15352429/ New loans are almost always masculine in Bokmaal (and in Nynorsk too) das Porto (n) - portoen (m) - postage das Sofa (n) - sofaen (m) - sofa die Pizza (f) - pizzaen (m) - pizza die Oper (f) - operaen (m) - opera das Zebra (n) - sebraen (m) - zebra das Baby (n) - babyen (m) - baby (in rare cases Nynorsk gets the feminine in loans die Mama (f) - mammaen (m in Bokmaal) / mammaa (f in Nynorsk) - mom/mum) Edited by Medulin on 14 December 2012 at 11:39am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5455 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 15 of 17 14 December 2012 at 11:41am | IP Logged | ||
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Norwegian Bokmål and Norwegian Riksmål in their most conservative forms have, like standard Danish and standard
Swedish, a two gender system with "common gender" (or utrum) and neuter. The common gender is the result of a fusion of the masculine and the feminine. Norwegian Nynorsk has kept the three gender system with masculine, feminine and neuter. Norwegian Bokmål in its most "radical" form has the same three gender system. Most Norwegians will refer to forms like ei jente, jenta and ei sol, sola as feminine and forms like en jente, jenten and en sol, solen as masculine. Say common gender or utrum to the avarage Norwegian, and he or she will not know what you're talking about. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Ogrim Heptaglot Senior Member France Joined 4641 days ago 991 posts - 1896 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian | Message 16 of 17 14 December 2012 at 12:00pm | IP Logged | ||
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In addition to what tractor just said above, it is worth mentioning that in parts of Oslo (westside and western suburbs) some people will use the masculine or "common" indefinite article but the feminine definite ending: So they say "en ku" but "kua", en "hytte" but "hytta". (I actually believe I do it myself.)
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