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Article on the English used in academia. | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| caam_imt Triglot Senior Member Mexico Joined 4863 days ago 232 posts - 357 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2, Finnish Studies: German, Swedish | Message 1 of 24 23 April 2013 at 1:04am | IP Logged | |||||
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I found this article and I thought it would be interesting to discuss. The article is
from Helsingin Sanomat (Finnish newspaper). The word "kökköenglanti" that appears in the title was hard to translate. It refers (to my understanding) to the way English sounds when spoken with a heavy Finnish accent (perhaps similar to another humorous term "tankeroenglanti"), avoiding also complex language usage. I replaced that word with "basic". http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/V%C3%A4it%C3%B6s+K%C3%B6kk%C3%B6eng lanti+on+hyv%C3%A4+opetuski eli/a1305627666370 This is my translation: Dissertation: "Basic" English is a good language for tuition. In the case of tuition being held in English, Finnish students understand the best when a teacher's mother tongue is not English. According to research, the fact that "Basic" English -the way students call it- is stripped of linguistic sophistication facilitates understanding. In her dissertation, M.Phil. Jaana Suviniitty has explained the applicability of a master's program in English and the views of students on tuition held in English. Suviniitty noticed that in easily comprehensible lectures held in English, teachers used plenty of interactive methods. The teachers, whose native tongue was not English, viewed their linguistic abilities as insufficient, and therefore desired the students to participate in the lectures. The dissertation will be presented for defense at the University of Helsinki on Friday. ---------------------------------------------------------- So, in short, it says that for Finns, a Finnish-accented English is easier to understand than native-English. It of course makes sense, as the phonology of this "fennicized" English is closer to the one of Finnish; also the slower pace and simple structure make it easier to understand. But I have mixed feelings about it being a "good language for tuition". In the comments below the article, the general opinion seems to be that "proper" English is actually a nuisance, and people ought to speak simple English, or Globish. Somebody also said that usually, when Scandinavians, Germans, Frenchmen and Brits are together (and the conversation is carried out in English), Brits are a source of confusion due to their idiomatic expressions and higher language. My gripe is this: is it so bad to strive for above-average English proficiency? why are native speakers put in a bad light? It is my fault if I don't understand them, not theirs. While I understand very well why this happens (mostly for practical reasons, effective communication, less time to learn English, etc. etc.), it strikes me as a rather mediocre way of thinking. What do you guys think? EDIT: Remove these two spaces for the link to work: eng_lanti, opetuski_eli Link added by Fasulye: Press article written in Finnish from "Helsingin Sanomat" Edited by Fasulye on 04 May 2013 at 12:11pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| morinkhuur Triglot Groupie Germany Joined 4678 days ago 79 posts - 157 votes Speaks: German*, Latin, English Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Maghribi) | Message 2 of 24 23 April 2013 at 2:35am | IP Logged | |||||
Yes, I've noticed somethin like this as well and i think it's a very interesting phenomenon but i can't seem to put this into the right words. There seems to be some kind of simplified "lingua-franca-variety" of English with fewer idioms etc. that is used for international communication between non-native speakers. So when native speakers take part in a conversation held in this variety of English that really only serves as a bridge for communication, in a way they actually use a different language or at least they use the same language quite differently. The way English native speakers use their language reflects the fact that it is their primary language of communication and the language in which their culture "happens". This means they use idioms and expressions which originate in a cultural context that may be foreign to Scandinavians, Germans, Frenchmen and others. They speak as they would in everyday conversation with the full range of expression that one has in their native language whereas the non- natives often speak quite differently, using only basic grammar and vocabulary with influences from their native languages. I feel like the English language loses its "cultural soul" as a lingua franca, and that many foreign learners of English speak a soulless, cultureless (or multicultural?) variety of English in international communication. On the other hand, a foreigner who has learnt English very well (and from native speakers!) will encounter the same problems as the natives do in international communication, even if he speaks to one of his fellow countrymen in English. I've also noticed that people can speak English "with a wrong culture", if that makes sense. One example for that could be an Egyptian man who speaks English to western tourists. He can be understood by the tourists but the way he uses the English language (not referring to accent) is quite similar to the way he uses his native language (which would be arabic), so he uses English in a cultural context that is decidedly "un-English" (too many quotation marks in this explanation lol), which results in something that sounds quite peculiar to native speakers. none of this sounds like anything scientific though.
i don't think they are implying that it's bad to learn English well or that they are putting native speakers in a bad light but i share your scepticism about the conclusions they draw from the study. I would be hard pressed to give a rational reason for this though. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5227 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 3 of 24 23 April 2013 at 3:16am | IP Logged | |||||
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Mind you, I'm judging from what you say, I can't read Finnish. That said, Looking down on proper language and proficient speakers strikes you as a mediocre way of thinking? No wonder, it is.
This is an interestingly parallel situation to that of many students who struggle to understand the contents or questions posed at them at school (in their native language). What's the solution, to work on improving their comprehension, or to dumb everything down? These Finns have an extra 'foreign' language card to play and delay running into reality, but sometimes people just gotta grow up. Students working in an environment where they don't understand well (compared to another one in which they have NO language problems) learn less, slower, or both. Dumbing down the language so they can't blame it for getting lost will only exacerbate things. Oh the wonders of 'bilingual teaching'... Now, how many people would freely admit that something (not being up to par to follow the necessary explanations) is their fault and not somebody else's? As far as there is some sort of excuse to cling to, most people will: native teachers use fancy words and idioms, they fail to speak with a proper accent, they know exactly what they're saying and won't make gestures to help indicate what it is, they won't start three levels below where the course should, they trust students to understand and work hard if necessary instead of stopping to check all the time making students participate... they refuse to make students' lives easier, the dirty bastards! And how could anybody blame any authorities for grossly mismatching students' real abilities and initial course requirements? Of course it was the teachers. Go force them use poor English or hang them! Edited by mrwarper on 23 April 2013 at 3:23am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| sehiralti Triglot Newbie Finland Joined 4758 days ago 15 posts - 27 votes Speaks: Turkish*, EnglishC2, German Studies: Swedish, Finnish | Message 4 of 24 23 April 2013 at 9:17am | IP Logged | |||||
Ha ha! I'm usually in a similar position almost everyday. I should add that mostly Scandinavians (and Finns) have better English than Germans, who have better English than the French (in my experience). So, what I've seen so far is that the French and the Germans are more likely to get confused by the Brits. I have not seen many people who speak good English to be confused by Brits' idiomatic expressions or higher language. Sometimes there can be a problem of accent or dialect, and after getting used to speaking that person (say, for a few hours) there does not seem to be much problem. Also, the difficulty (for us) was mostly with the Irish than the Brits'. So I would say that it is certainly a problem of accent and dialect, not higher language skills (which makes sense since most people -like me- are used to the American accent instead of the British). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 5 of 24 23 April 2013 at 9:55am | IP Logged | |||||
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A Finnish teacher who teaches English should be a relatively advanced learner, but even then it is likely that (s)he uses fewer idiomatic or regional expressions, and that (s)he also is more tuned in on the problems language learners may have than a native teacher. It is even likely that such a teacher has an accent, but if it is the accent of the pupils - just weaker - then it would be logical that the pupils could understand him/her better than than a native teacher.
But there is a lower limit: if a person sounds distinctly unnative then I know from myself that I have some kind of internal filter which stops me from listening too closely to the language of that person. Which is one major reason for my scepticism concerning courses with costudents - listening to the inept gaggling of other learners with terrible pronunciation and rotten grammar would force me to keep that defence up all the time, and that would block my learning. It might even become stuck up there so that I couldn't benefit from the few glorious moments where you would be permitted to hear a native speaker. The problem at the other end of the scale is that you must switch to native sources at some stage - and preferably not too late into the process. A very good second language learner with a weak accent may indeed appear as a speaker of just one more variant of the language in question - albeit one which isn't spoken by any true natives. But normally you can hear that a speaker is native by the inflections, words and expressions which don't sound like something learnt in school. Especially good second language speakers often have a bland quality to their language - it isn't idiosyncratic, regional, stubbornly different and insider oriented enough to be the autochthonous product of a full lifetime immersed into the language. Instead it has been cultivated in a greenhouse somewhere outside the territory, and the teachers of the teacher have succeed in removing all the colourful irregularities from his/her language. And therefore you have to listen to the unruffled difficult voices of native speakers at some point, but it is not a given thing that your first language teacher should be a native speaker. By the same logic which keeps textbooks on the market, a good second language learner as teacher may provide an easier access point for a hapless rockbottom newbee than a native speaker - who even could be a monoglot expat without pedagogical skills. Edited by Iversen on 23 April 2013 at 11:11am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Ogrim Heptaglot Senior Member France Joined 4640 days ago 991 posts - 1896 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian | Message 6 of 24 23 April 2013 at 10:14am | IP Logged | |||||
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What the Finnish article expresses is nothing new. A very good analysis of English as a Foreign Language, or "Academic English" can be found in this article by the Norwegian anthropologist Thomas Hylland Eriksen. It is quite long, so I will just quote a small part of it:
QUOTE: "I teach quite a lot in English, usually to non-native speakers. Like many of you. I notice that bcause of the lack of a shared cultural environment, I tell fewer jokes about local politicians and avoid word-play than I do at home. Come to think of it, I often tend to avoid jokes altogether when I teach in English to students who may struggle with the language, and who cannot reasonably be expected to understand my bad jokes. As a compensation, the students probably learn more. Thirdly, the difference between English as spoken by natives and academic EFL is much more marked than it is in writing. After all, academics are reading, writing people. This phenomenon is, incidentally, far from unknown in other contexts. It is said about Joseph Conrad that he spoke so bad English that only his close friends could understand him. And Vladimir Nabokov famously said: “I think like a genius, I write like a great writer, and I speak like a child.” This difference may lead us to expect that native speakers get the upper hand in discussion sessions at conferences, if not at formal presentations. In my experience, they do." The article also contains a reference to this website. It is called From Plain English to Global English, and gives native speakers of English tips on how to make their English understandable for non-natives. It is a bit tongue-in cheek I guess, but it illustrates the phenomenon perfectly. The final point made by Hylland Eriksen I find very important. He says that "at the University of Oslo, there are scholars who have devoted their lives to the dissemination of Foucault’s ideas in Scandinavia, or to criticising the welfare state for its unintentional side-effects. Under the present academic regime, publishing in English has an immeasurably higher value than writing essentially the same texts in Norwegian. However, lots of people introduce Foucault in English and besides, a Norwegian-language public sphere should be capable of having its own debates going, tailored to a Norwegian world of experience and able to influence public opinion and policymakers in the country. Academic EFL, necessary as it is for mutual intelligibility, is threatening to replace vernaculars in intellectual discourse, and the result is that domestic or national issues are marginalised." 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| maucca Diglot Senior Member Finland Joined 4652 days ago 33 posts - 64 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English Studies: French | Message 7 of 24 23 April 2013 at 10:18am | IP Logged | |||||
"Kökkö" is an informal word meaning "bad, unpleasant, inferior". http://fi.wiktionary.org/wiki/k%C3%B6kk%C3%B6 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| caam_imt Triglot Senior Member Mexico Joined 4863 days ago 232 posts - 357 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2, Finnish Studies: German, Swedish | Message 8 of 24 23 April 2013 at 10:25am | IP Logged | |||||
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Quite good points, thanks for the responses!
And by the way, just to clarify, the proper article ends at "the University of Helsinki on Friday." The little rant that follows is related to the people who commented on that article, so, their comments have no scientific basis or perhaps are not even serious. I just interpreted them as the way an average Joe thinks (which as many of you pointed out, is somehow reflected among foreigners and nationals of other countries). 1 person has voted this message useful |
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