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Article on the English used in academia. | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5231 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 17 of 24 24 April 2013 at 2:11pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Nothing fancy, but certainly one many people won't like: if students can't be trusted not to enroll in a course they'll have problems following*, test them beforehand, in the most genuine spirit of 'protecting people from themselves'. Here in Spain you could become a sworn translator either by getting a uni degree meeting certain requirements, or by passing a (supposedly "very difficult") test. Then the test became mandatory, which rose the irate protests of degree holders. One has to wonder what's so scary about tests if those degrees really mean something. *I consider the all too real possibility of teachers not being able to make themselves understood as a different problem if not stemming from the 'language' bit. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| daegga Tetraglot Senior Member Austria lang-8.com/553301 Joined 4526 days ago 1076 posts - 1792 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, Norwegian Studies: Danish, French, Finnish, Icelandic | Message 18 of 24 24 April 2013 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
So you want to prefer international students (who usually are tested in English anyway) over national students? What you propose makes sense if the course is offered in both English and the national language (but why would you take the English one then?), but more and more courses are offered only in English, at least in some study programmes. Internationalisation at the prize of leaving national students without a special linguistic interest behind leaves a bitter taste. Would-be brilliant minds in a certain discipline would be shut out because of their linguistic skills. Doesn't make much sense to me (except if we want the sciences to be dominated by English-lovers). Edited by daegga on 24 April 2013 at 4:04pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5231 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 19 of 24 24 April 2013 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I'm not sure what you mean. I'd prefer 'the academia' everywhere to properly assess their students so they can be offered followable and useful courses in the first place. I doubt anyone would prefer to follow a course in a foreign language *all other things being equal*, so to me it only makes sense to have courses held in them if no qualified local teachers are available. Given that it happens anyway, and since so many people seem to be notoriously bad at self-assessing their language skills, a previous test on par with the course would prevent a great deal of self-delusion and delayed grief. Think of it as a kind of 'you must be this tall' warning sign in front of a ride at a theme park. Sure, no one will fall off and break a leg, so anyone should be allowed in, as long as they don't start demanding for others to compensate their lack of ability to follow. Isn't that common sense? The opposite happens all too often nowadays, so I'm not so sure anymore. Edited by mrwarper on 24 April 2013 at 4:57pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6708 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 20 of 24 24 April 2013 at 5:08pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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In Denmark those who are most happy with the ongoing Anglification process are those who aren't really interested in languages - i.e. globalistic businessmen and politicians in one corner and facebook-twitter mad youngsters in the other. There may be some left behind, not least among older citizens who didn't grow up with a constant influx of English films and music, but having little influence in general they can't delay and even less stop the process.
If I was writing a dissertation now at a Danish university I would probably also write it in English because of my career prospects, but I really don't like to see our academic world switching so blindly to English. It is important for any language to have a living scientific and technical culture in the language, otherwise it will degenerate. And therefore there should be an upper treshold for the percentage of courses which were done in English at any public school (except of course in language schools which teach English, but I don't see those as a threat - all Danes now learn English as a second language, and then they should at least learn it well!) Edited by Iversen on 24 April 2013 at 5:19pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| daegga Tetraglot Senior Member Austria lang-8.com/553301 Joined 4526 days ago 1076 posts - 1792 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, Norwegian Studies: Danish, French, Finnish, Icelandic | Message 21 of 24 24 April 2013 at 5:18pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I'm not sure what the "official" terms are, what I meant: national students: those students born in the country the university is based in international students: students born in a different country (they usually have to take an English test to be admitted) So all the international students will be admitted to the course, but not all national students because they never prepared for studies in English, while the international students made the choice to study in English by studying in a foreign country. A have the feeling the average 18/19-year-old is not very proficient in English at least in my country (I took some English language courses intended for those studying an English related subject - mostly aspiring English teachers ... the level of English there wasn't especially great, and there were entrance tests of course, which a lot of students failed. The proficiency of those not interested in English can only be guessed...). And a few years later, only those have improved who actually use English regularly. The problem arises when core courses (obligatory courses) are only offered in English because the university wants to have an international profile, ie. more international students and more guest professors. Especially technical sciences go more and more in that direction, especially Master's programmes, but not only. If those courses are held by native English speakers who don't try to adapt their language to the course takers and there is no alternative course available (rationalisation is omnipresent in public universities), students with only average or below average English skills are effectively shut out. Edited by daegga on 24 April 2013 at 5:30pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5231 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 22 of 24 24 April 2013 at 6:23pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
That's doing the wrong thing, which is what you shouldn't do in the first place. In which case, 'dumbing down' the language indeed eases a problem created by someone else, instead of exacerbating one you created to begin with. A dual perspective: if you start with a round hole you don't want to fit in a square peg -- if you start with a round pole... but I'd expect any 'academia authorities' to think themselves above that kind of stuff and deny there are any problems.
Ignorance is said to be bliss. It is also said to be most daring. Who would be happy about ditching a language and daring to lose all that comes with it, except those who will never have enough interest to realize how deeply entangled (and thus how important) language is to one's own culture? The above is paradigm of how education, important as it is, doesn't prevent ignorance by itself.
I always said, whatever you want to learn, bother to learn well. But you all know I'm the proverbial square peg ;) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6602 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 23 of 24 24 April 2013 at 8:16pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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This thread makes me remember a funny story my friend told me. She loves Italy and is fluent in Italian, and she likes it more than English. However, she's been taught proper English at uni. So, she was staying in Italy and took a short trip to Croatia from there, by ferry. Near a currency exchange kiosk she asked a local, "excuse me, what is the current exchange rate between euro and the local currency?" and the person was like O__________o She then asked more simply, "one euro - how much Croatian money?" and the person of course understood.
The international language is not British English or American English, but simple English. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6602 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 24 of 24 24 April 2013 at 8:27pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Also, some students definitely think "if I have trouble understanding the lectures, I should improve my English". Shouldn't they get a chance? If they receive their education in English and have some contact with native speakers, they can improve significantly within just one semester. Edited by Serpent on 24 April 2013 at 8:29pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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