L-R success or not story (Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies) Language Learning Forum

L-R success or not story
Tags: Success Story \| Listening-Reading (L-R)
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Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies

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keithbc
Senior Member
United States
Joined 7029 days ago
8 posts - 8 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Spanish

Message 1 of 29

17 September 2009 at 11:22pm | IP Logged

I'd like to hear from some people who have used the L-R system. I've searched but haven't been able to find any yet.
I'd like to know..
How you did it?
Did you flashcards or another program(FSI, etc)?
How is your comprehension now with unknown reading, TV, radio, natvice speaker?
Thanks
1 person has voted this message useful

doviende
Diglot
Senior Member
Canada
languagefixatio
Joined 5921 days ago
533 posts - 1245 votes

Speaks: English*, German
Studies: Spanish, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Hindi, Swedish, Portuguese

Message 2 of 29

18 September 2009 at 12:02pm | IP Logged

I'm not precisely doing L-R as described in other posts here, but I do quite a lot of listening to audiobooks while reading a deadtree copy at the same time, so i consider it to be mostly the same. This is a major component of my study plan.

I do 3 main things:
1) L-R
2) watching TV without subtitles
3) use an SRS to reinforce example sentences

When i started out learning German a few months ago, i barely understood anything in the books i was reading (mostly Harry Potter), and this is despite the fact that i took 4 years of German classes in high school 10 years ago. Now (2 or 3 months later), I'm reading German novels with very good comprehension of the plot, although there are still plenty of words that i don't know

When i read, i listen to the audiobook at the same time, and i don't stop to look anything up. Occasionally i'll use a highlighter to pick a sentence that is interesting, and i'll go back later and add that sentence to Anki. I try not to look up any words unless i've seen them a few times already in context. then if i still can't get it, i'll look it up.

Altogether, i've read over 300000 words (on my way to a goal of reading 1 million words), and i've watched probably 150 hours of tv with no subtitles. My anki deck has ~800 example sentences in it. I certainly have a long way to go still, and i wouldn't call myself fluent, but i can currently pick up any German novel and just sit down and read it with good understanding, without looking anything up, and i've only been studying hard for maybe 2 or 3 months. When i watch TV, i watch things like Star Trek: Deep Space 9, House, MASH, the simpsons (all dubbed in German), and i always understand the major plot elements (although there are some individual sentences where i have difficulty). It was a big milestone for me when i noticed i could watch House in German and laugh at the jokes.

I definitely recommend this sort of study method, which i think more closely matches AJATT than pure L-R, but i really love the L-R component of it and i think that's what has given me the most benefit. It's a great way to get massive exposure to the language, which is exactly what you need :)

- doviende
http://languagefixation.wordpress.com/
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Lingua
Decaglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5511 days ago
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Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Danish, French, Norwegian, Portuguese, Dutch

Message 3 of 29

18 September 2009 at 2:26pm | IP Logged

doviende wrote:

It's a great way to get massive exposure to the language, which is exactly what you need :)

I'd say you are doing exactly the right things.

By the way, you can watch real (non-dubbed) German TV here:

http://www.ardmediathek.de/ard/servlet/

I like watching Marienhof and Eine für alle. Sturm der Liebe probably has the easiest to understand German.

Edited by Lingua on 18 September 2009 at 2:27pm
5 persons have voted this message useful

Adrean
TAC 2010 Winner
Senior Member
France
adrean83.wordpress.c
Joined 6103 days ago
348 posts - 411 votes

Speaks: French^C1

Message 4 of 29

30 September 2009 at 11:52pm | IP Logged

Hi I feel I'm in a good position to comment on the validity of the L-R method and if it does lead to comprehension. I have done 300 hours of L-R in total. Which is more then anyone else on this forum I think.....

When I read about the L-R method I was thunderstruck and I knew this was the method which was going to be my prinicipal form of study. It was so simple on a fundamental level. There is no need to overcomplicate it. I don't use parellel texts. I don't now read the book in English before I begin to L-R (I did this originally but I don't think I need to at my level). I don't shadow the book. I don't read the book more then once. It simply is for me listening to the book in your target language and reading in your native language. It's that simple.

Yes there is no doubt that it improves your comprehension. Why should it not??? I also am far more at ease and relaxed then any other method I know. Including flashcards(anki), textbooks and audiocourses. But it does have it's good's and it's bad's. I believe there is a fundamental disconnection with 'the real world' usage of the language. Yes you can converse on a very simple level but if you overhear a group of young French conversing (as I often do) it does sound like a completely different language.

I have posted on my log about the subject

The good

Quote:

The L-R subject has come up elsewhere on this forum and I feel I'm in a good position to say that it is definetely a method that works as it's been my main method of study for quite some time. Why shouldn't the method work? You literally are hearing hours upon hours of your target language uninterrupted. You may also hear hours of dialogue on the radio or tv or in movies but with L-R you have a translation in front of you which is ALWAYS more literal then film subtitles and less frustrating then watching T.V or listening to the radio because of what you miss. Since I have begun to L-R my listening comprehension has improved ten-fold. Why? I believe it's because the very basic words, tenses, pro-nouns, adjectives etc. etc are repeated over and over and over until they become second nature to you. Anyway the talk is endless over L-R but I stand by it vigilantly.

The bad

Quote:

I have my first complaint about the Listening-Reading method ever as a form of study. I do believe that using this method will not in fact lead to fluency by itself. There is no surprise there. Why? Because so many hours are spent listening to language that is never ever used. The dialogue, descriptions and words are so far removed from what is actually said in day to day conversations. What we say in everyday conversations is actually very little as has been pointed out by many. It is the ability to be able to recollect and formulate these small amount of words in a coherent manner which is most important. You should belt it out with reasonable ease after three years of study I believe. There should be a method (preferably audio) which concentrates on the very essence of day to day conversations that builds and extends upon Michel Thomas, Pimsleur etc. because they soon become very redundant for the intermediate-advanced learner. It should focus on brining you up to speed in a naturalistic dialogue so that you can effortlessly express your thoughts and opinions.

Edited by Adrean on 30 September 2009 at 11:54pm
8 persons have voted this message useful

Kubelek
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Switzerland
chomikuj.pl/Kuba_wal
Joined 6787 days ago
415 posts - 528 votes

Speaks: Polish*, English^C2, French, Spanish
Studies: German

Message 5 of 29

01 October 2009 at 1:23am | IP Logged

Search for it some more, use google. There were many good accounts on the forum, which provoked interesting discussions.

here is mine
1 person has voted this message useful

crafedog
Diglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 5753 days ago
166 posts - 337 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Korean, Tok Pisin, French

Message 6 of 29

07 September 2011 at 6:03pm | IP Logged

bump-bump-bumpity-bump-bump.
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stmc2
Diglot
Groupie
United Kingdom
Joined 6186 days ago
45 posts - 58 votes

Speaks: English*, Japanese
Studies: German

Message 7 of 29

08 September 2011 at 12:22am | IP Logged

doviende wrote:

When i read, i listen to the audiobook at the same time, and i don't stop to look anything up. Occasionally i'll use a highlighter to pick a sentence that is interesting, and i'll go back later and add that sentence to Anki. I try not to look up any words unless i've seen them a few times already in context. then if i still can't get it, i'll look it up.

/

Sounds like a good system. Could you tell us the novels that you used at the start and then some novels you have recently used. A couple of pointers would be great.
1 person has voted this message useful

therumsgone
Diglot
Groupie
United States
Joined 6472 days ago
93 posts - 105 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: French

Message 8 of 29

08 September 2011 at 7:00am | IP Logged

This is copied and pasted directly from my log (I hope that's okay). I've only done a bit of L-R but I've found it to be a very useful method (I'm learning French). Currently, I've been going through the books (Harry Potter) twice, once reading English and listening in French, once reading and listening in French.

Quote:

I'd like to say a few things about L-R, as I had such a hard time finding information on it when I first started doing it. I think that many of us have read the thread, which makes some bold assertions. I hope it's okay for me to summarize them, and then explain what I think about them. In the original thread, it was claimed that:

1) L-R is a magic bullet to rapidly and effortlessly understanding a foreign language, but only if
2) the L-R material is extremely long and
3) the material is well known to the reader
4) if L-R is done in chunks of 10-12 hours at a time, with no breaks

I find that L-R really does significantly improve understanding of a foreign language, especially in having an intuitive feel for the language. It truly seems to improve listening comprehension, and can be a source of vocabulary words that one might not come across in a formal course. Furthermore, L-R will drill the most frequent words fairly effectively, as frequent words (true to their name) pop up frequently.

I also agree that the L-R material should be well known to the reader (I think the word used in the original thread was "self-evident"). I read Harry Potter for the first time in 1999, and have read it countless times since then. I know the characters, I know the story, I can separate the nonsense words from actual vocabulary. I truly remember some of the conversations by heart (especially those that appeared in the book and movie). Were I reading something I was less familiar with, I would have found the process far less enjoyable.

I disagree with the idea that L-R should be done with extremely long texts for hours at a time with no breaks. This seems unnecessary (I've gotten so much out of listening to just a chapter or two at a time). Successful language learning seems to require hard work, done consistently, with lots of native input. I never saw a good reason why I should spend entire weeks doing nothing but L-R, and I would suggest that requirement was suggested without any rational basis.

Finally, I've also painted L-R as a bit of a silver bullet here, but I want to qualify that. Assimil is the backbone of my learning: I do a new listen a day, I listen to and shadow the lessons everyday for 10 days before moving on, and I plan to follow this program through to the end. Each day, I learn something new. Assimil and L-R seem to go well together, as Assimil clarifies constructions that I've seen repeatedly in L-R, and L-R reinforces vocabulary and grammar I've learned using Assimil (I would never have remembered the word "fauteuil" if I hadn't heard it a bunch of times in context).

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