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At what level do you say you speak (2) ? | ||
Tags: CEFR Language Levels | Speaking | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| casamata Senior Member Joined 4263 days ago 237 posts - 377 votes  Studies: Portuguese | Message 105 of 118 02 April 2013 at 6:38pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
When I give those examples, in which two students are learning for variable amounts of time (3 vs 1 year), I already specified that they both are immersed in the language 100%. If I did not say it, I meant to say that the person that worked for 3 years at language spent 3x as many hours as the other guy. The thing is that a lot of people overestimate their language ability and think that they are all that when they are intermediates. But they really don't realize how little they know. Yes, some strategies can help somebody assimilate vocabulary and learn a language faster than others, but it is definitely not by a factor of 4 or 5. A lot of people that work at a language for years are not just sipping on scotch, laying back on the couch and not working hard. They are getting advanced degrees in the language and know how to dissect the grammar and know the very intricacies of the language. They have significant others where the relationship is 100% in the language. For example, that Mezzo guild guy lived several years (it seems that it was like 95% Arabic) in the middle east and had a long-term relationship 100% in Arabic. He said that it was not possible to reach a C1 or whatever level in 3 months, as the oh-so-controversial Benny Lewis figure guy said. Would you trust a specialist in a language or some very optimist guy that says that every language is equally difficult and you have to BELIEVE to do well at a language. Furthermore, he said that Lewis's level was terrible after the 2 or 3 months. Who do you believe? I think I'll go to bed tomorrow and BELIEVE that I will learn Mandarin in a month, see how it goes. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4534 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 106 of 118 02 April 2013 at 6:38pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Thanks for the respect, but it is unnecessary. My only point is that I am going trust a pile of peer-reviewed research on music acquisition over a random anecdote by a stranger on a forum list.
I am not at all convinced that this is a valid analogy. People felt exactly the same way about music acquisition and this was disproved by looking at the data, as opposed to following strongly held intuitions. [Note: it was taken for granted in this study that people missing fingers etc were not going to make it too too high a level in music, just as your example of people with a smaller bodies etc may not reach professional sporting levels - that doesn't argue against the main point of the study]. Also while not everyone can run a four-minute mile, most people can learn to speak a language fluently (putting aside real brain abnormalities). I suspect rates of first language acquisition can be mostly be parsimoniously explained by relative amounts and quality of exposure to language materials in childhood (e.g., growing up in an enriched vs impoverished environment), rather than by some variable language acquisition talent. As I said in my last post I have not seen evidence either way that what holds for music also is true for language acquisition, but as the results for music also seem to true for the acquisition of various other skills, my intuition (though obviously not yours) is that this may well hold true of languages as well. Anyway its always easy to argue these things back and forth when they are presented in black and white terms. I am happy to accept that talent may play some role, but if so I think it's relatively small compared to hours spent studying. Edited by patrickwilken on 02 April 2013 at 7:03pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4534 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 107 of 118 02 April 2013 at 6:52pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
No argument. People who get into music school presumably are all motivated, have all their fingers etc, and suffer no obvious brain abnormalities that limit their music ability. What is surprising is that the huge range in the final ability - from only being good enough to teach at secondary school to being a future soloist star - can be put down to hours spent learning. Edited by patrickwilken on 02 April 2013 at 7:01pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 108 of 118 02 April 2013 at 7:34pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
What is your argument here exactly? If you spend three times as many hours you will get better results, but I never said anything to the contrary. I was implying this all along...
Good on them. Is it your job to burst their bubble? Why are you so offended by what everybody else does? Why do you even care again?
Some of these factors help, but none of them are in and of itself a guarantee of proficiency. The deciding factor is effort. The only compelling reason is the last one, but trust me, it takes some diplomacy and effort to maintain a relationship in a certain language. Easier said than done.
Who cares whether his level was good or terrible? He made progress in three months. The point of his site is to inspire new learners to learn languages. It's not so relevant for advanced learners. His job is to show you can get results after three months. You can learn and it's a human task. Whether he reaches B1, C1, or D75 isn't the point. The point is that he outlines how you take the necessary steps to learn one-by-one. He dissects them for you. That is the goal of Benny's blog. Nothing else. For the record I have the book and the title of the book LHG (Language Hacking Guide) (fluent in 3 months is a reference to VISA RESTRICTIONS and also not the title of his book). The book very explicitly states that it does not promise fluency and ease of speech. He repeats several times that languages are hard. Have you even read any of his stuff? It sounds like you're making biased judgements based on a forum webpage. Maybe next time read further a bit without the angry glasses on? It is irrelevant what I believe on this matter. I don't care what others do very much. If they speak well they speak well and if they don't they don't. I can see through an obvious marketing scam and I adapt my methods from people who do well and from experience and knowledge of what works for me to suit my goals and needs. Nothing more. I'm not concerned with a day more or less. To me the "3 months/6 months" has more to do with setting a deadline so you will achieve progress than it has anything to with acquiring fluency, which I can't describe to you anyway because you haven't defined what it means and which context (!) I am supposed to apply it.
Go ahead. I'm not sure if you will "learn Mandarin a month" because that doesn't mean anything really, but you'll get results. For sure. Edited by tarvos on 02 April 2013 at 7:40pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| stout Senior Member Ireland Joined 5372 days ago 108 posts - 140 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 109 of 118 02 April 2013 at 11:42pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I would think that I am at level B1 of French at present.Hopefully I will manage to
increase my level of French to around level B2 by the autumn of 2016. Edited by stout on 03 April 2013 at 6:51pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| casamata Senior Member Joined 4263 days ago 237 posts - 377 votes Studies: Portuguese | Message 110 of 118 03 April 2013 at 3:44am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Dude, so if I sell a book that at the very least is somewhat misleading in regards to the level of proficiency achieved in X time for Y dollars, then it doesn't matter?
I wouldn't give a darn about him but when you are selling books for a lot of coin and without certifications, I think its fair to be somewhat skeptical. And no, passing some CEFR tests does not mean that has the schooling nor the capacity to teach. You are really fine with a lot of his anti-intellectual rants about how the "elite" people want you to think that you can't reach a native-level pronunciation after the critical period. Morever, why the heck do you care what I write? You could just leave me the heck alone and bug somebody else. The pertinence of the 3x vs 1x example I broached was referring to the fact that Lewis said that he was, most likely, going to reach a level that very experienced and successful language learners did in years. But whatever, if you want to buy into the scam, it's your choice. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 111 of 118 03 April 2013 at 7:41am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
But the book doesn't promise that. The book doesn't promise anything at all, it's a collected set of essays designed to motivate people and give them tools to succeed at language learning in the here and now, not 20 years in the future. It allows people to adopt a "do it today" mentality with regards to language-learning. It never once promises fluency in three months, that is only the title of the blog. What Benny Lewis' own missions entail is a separate thing from the book. And if you'd read even the description page you'd know that, Benny is very explicit about this. I don't see what the scam is in motivating people to get a move on today with their language learning process and giving them confidence. And I've already explained the point of the blog. If you do not want to read the blog then it is up to you but we are discussing a normal topic of fluency here at HTLAL on the beloved Internets but why you need to come here and explain to us that we are being scammed (what? scams are not obvious? We can't see it for ourselves?) is beyond my capabilities to comprehend.
The fact that I own his book does not mean per se I have to agree with everything in it. Furthermore I always remain skeptical towards any claim. This includes any elite as much as Benny.
Tu quoque, Brute? Why is it any of your business what I think and why I care to write here? I am partaking in a discussion, you can either talk with me or leave it be. The only thing I am pointing out is that I think you are misrepresenting certain ideas and providing loaded and biased statements on a topic that contain a few myths I would like to dispel. Nothing more, nothing less. And stop with the ad hominems please, it's getting tiring. If you're going to argument please start building a few rational ones instead of trying to play guilt cards and laying claims in other people's mouths, it's fairly obvious and a dunce can see through it.
But I haven't stated anything about whether I believe he will succeed or not. And the languages he's been learning I unfortunately do not speak so it is far from me to pass judgement. But it doesn't matter anyway, because what I think or do not think about his missions is not important. And yes, if you spend time efficiently then you can do better than "experienced language learners" (who? what? What is the comparison, who are you judging against?). Please give me a proper analysis including methodology and we can identify a host of factors you didn't think of. And no, the example you gave doesn't prove anything because you weren't taking into account a whole lot of important variables. The only merit it has is pointing out that if you spend 3 times as many hours then you will probably get better than someone who spent the one; but that's actually also dependent on methodology, efficiency and a whole host of other factors. Don't imply a ceterus paribus where there is not one and besides, years don't count, hours do (and that's Splog who wrote that). It matters how you use your time and you made no statement on such a thing. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| casamata Senior Member Joined 4263 days ago 237 posts - 377 votes Studies: Portuguese | Message 112 of 118 03 April 2013 at 7:52am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Iba a decir algo grosero pero cuando uno no tiene nada bueno que decir, es mejor quedarse calladito, verdad? Bueno, hay personas que creen todo lo que se les diga y...ya. Ya estuvo chaval, aplácate y vuelve a estudiar! Edited by casamata on 03 April 2013 at 8:01am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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