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At what level do you say you speak (2) ? | ||
Tags: CEFR Language Levels | Speaking | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 41 of 118 30 March 2013 at 11:25am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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| Sterogyl Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4368 days ago 152 posts - 263 votes Studies: German*, French, EnglishC2 Studies: Japanese, Norwegian | Message 42 of 118 30 March 2013 at 11:40am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
In this video about extensive reading he says 98% (from 1:26): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbYMZZISPrU 98% is only logical and not that much. Imagine you don't know TWENTY words out of 100 in a text, the rest being more or less common words like have, be, to, a, the... you won't be able to read it. And you cannot guess them because of the context. Why he wrote in the thread you've linked 80% is enough, I don't know... 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 43 of 118 30 March 2013 at 11:54am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I can't watch the video right now but enough for what? In a European language you have not only "known unknowns" but also "unknown knowns", words you can understand without a dictionary even if you've never seen them before and the context alone is not clear enough.
Words like have, be, to, a, the can't constitute the 80% alone. With only them you'll understand more like 10%. In my experience you CERTAINLY don't need the 98%. for a proper enjoyment, maybe (not necessary for me). but for learning more from the context? that's very inefficient if you only learn 2% of the words. Especially as there will always be some words that you don't pick up from the context. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5533 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 44 of 118 30 March 2013 at 12:17pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I agree with Serpent: While extensive reading is remarkably pleasant once you understand 98% of the words, it's possible to start doing extensive reading long before that point. Really, as soon as you can pass your eyes over a page, follow the broad outlines of what's happening, and—most critically—actually enjoy the experience, then extensive reading is a useful and productive tool. Save the dictionary lookups for later. (If you don't like dog-earring books, or underlining words in pencil, get some of these reusable arrows and stick them next to interesting words while reading.) Intensive reading bridges the gap between "incomprehensible" and "decipherable." Extensive reading bridges the gap between "decipherable" and "automatic." 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Sterogyl Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4368 days ago 152 posts - 263 votes Studies: German*, French, EnglishC2 Studies: Japanese, Norwegian | Message 45 of 118 30 March 2013 at 12:25pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
But then you understand them. We're talking about words we don't understand, of course. I never learnt Portuguese, for instance, but I don't have to look up "internacionais". I know what it means. This is certainly not what Arguelles had in mind.
No, I don't think so. I'm talking about basic words, of course not ONLY the few words I have cited, but also words like can. not, make, do, need, for, my, your, I, that, what, which, where, some, there.... these constitute more than 10%.... just look at our postings here.
Well, this is what Arguelles said in his video. I never counted words or something, and admittedly, 98% seems to be a LOT at first sight, but it isn't. I don't know and doubt whether it is EXACTLY 98%, but 80% doesn't seem enough to me.
Yes, but that's even worse when you know less then the famous 98%. But watch the video later if you have the time. It's very interesting. @EMK: Then your extensive reading is not the same as Arguelles' extensive reading. :) Edited by Sterogyl on 30 March 2013 at 12:28pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 46 of 118 30 March 2013 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Extensive reading remains extensive reading no matter how many words you understand. That's just the comfort level/efficiency ratio. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| daegga Tetraglot Senior Member Austria lang-8.com/553301 Joined 4522 days ago 1076 posts - 1792 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, Norwegian Studies: Danish, French, Finnish, Icelandic | Message 47 of 118 30 March 2013 at 2:02pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Keep in mind that he uses to different definitions of 'to know a word'. In the thread where he says that you need 80%, he mentioned that this means being able to give definitions for those words without seeing the context. When he talks about 98%, that includes words you can define, words you can guess (from context or form), everything where you have a vague idea about the meaning (I think it even includes vocabulary where you for example know it is some kind of food, but don't know what exactly). I'm not sure he mentioned that in that particular video though. Those last 2% are truly unknown and you most likely don't learn them from context. Most of those 2% probably occur only once in the text and studies show that you need quite a few occurrences to pick up new vocabulary by extensive reading. Edited by daegga on 30 March 2013 at 2:14pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4534 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 48 of 118 30 March 2013 at 3:16pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I am sorry, but I can't agree with that. Personally I know many people who have learned English to that level (my mother, my grandmother (who learned English later in life as her forth language after Lithuanian, Russian and German), our Italian neighbors who immigrated to Australia etc. I am strongly of the belief that almost anyone can learn a language to full fluency given they have sufficient exposure. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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