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Drawbacks of Major Language Materials | ||
Tags: Textbooks | Language Program | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Eternica Triglot Newbie United States Joined 5071 days ago 24 posts - 74 votes  Speaks: Cantonese, English*, French Studies: Hungarian, Spanish | Message 17 of 38 18 October 2012 at 7:59pm | IP Logged | ||
Woah. Let's take a step back. First, I'm not sure what your conversations with other posters are about. Did they all plan on (or were in the process of) making a language learning program? Were they asking for help? I'm asking this because I might not be in the same boat as these guys. Secondly, I'm unclear of what your role is in this forum. Do you mainly participate in discussions about developing language programs? Are you a venture capitalist/angel investor/other investor looking to fund programs? If so, are you funding research development or product development? I'm asking this because I'm really unsure what you're asking me. What are your assumptions of what I am looking for here and what are your specific responses to these assumptions? If you want to PM me to discuss this, I WILL respond. However, I'm not sure if I fit your profile. It seems I might need to clarify my intentions. My long term goal is indeed to make a decent language learning program. However, I want to emphasize that I am not looking for a get rich quick scheme or to satisfy my ego by conquering other language learning programs. It's nice to warn me, but I made this thread so we can have a discussion on what are the potential problems that a learner may come across with certain mainstream language materials. My purpose is secondary. In any case, my goal is to develop something that effectively addresses common drawbacks of major language learning programs and (this is important) bridge the gap between those who permanently resign learning a language and those that see language learning as a part of day-to-day life. My vision is to get rid of (as best as possible) the beliefs that language learning is impossible, that they don't have talent, etc. through an effective program that friends can tell each other about. Is this an easy task? Hell no. It's my vision, and I'll take it one tiny step at a time. I was thinking of even making this all free. In fact, the first thing I'm planning on doing is making free lessons. This is actually my focus right now. Now opinion and research are indeed different things. However, one of the biggest obstacles to research is knowing WHAT to research (I've written a thesis in university and this is by far the most challenging aspect). Let me emphasize this: I'm not looking for research at this time. Significant primary research is going to take tons of capital (both human and real) and time. I won't be able to do this. Period. Even if someone were to fund this, I would refuse. This is because I do NOT have a full-fledged idea right now. I do not have a product. You are correct. I'm just puzzled why you are mentioning this. What I'm looking for are ideas (opinions churn out ideas). If I don't ask for opinions, then I have only my own ideas to fall back on. It would be shortsighted for me to just believe that my ideas work and others are irrelevant, which is what motivated me to post this thread. I'm trying to get a synthesized image of what gaps we can fill when it comes to language learning. EDIT: I don't want to keep interrupting the momentum in this thread, so I'll make an edit. @Michel1020 : yes, you're right. To be more specific, I mean that I'm concentrating on beginner material. I do want to make my living out of this, but I feel that I'd only be more fit to charge people money after I learn a bit or two more about making language learning materials. Creating material isn't easy work, and I have thought about the questions you mentioned. However, without experience, I probably don't have a reasonable idea of how difficult and time consuming it gets (and things are usually far more difficult than they seem). I need to stay humble by starting small. Edited by Eternica on 19 October 2012 at 2:24am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Michel1020 Tetraglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 5016 days ago 365 posts - 559 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish, Dutch | Message 18 of 38 18 October 2012 at 11:05pm | IP Logged | ||
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Great reply however I too had understood you were planing to make it a business - because you said you don't have a paid job right now and you also said you were thinking to keep it free for the beginner learner level. Edited by Michel1020 on 19 October 2012 at 8:34am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Juаn Senior Member Colombia Joined 5344 days ago 727 posts - 1830 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 19 of 38 19 October 2012 at 1:44am | IP Logged | ||
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My biggest complaint regarding language-learning materials is that too often they drop you off at a high-beginner or lower-intermediate level, at which point suitable intermediate to advanced materials for further study can be scarce or even non-existent for some languages, native content is still unapproachable, and starting over with another offering from a different company seems a waste of time.
What I hope for most then when looking for materials for learning a new language is that they progress in a deliberate manner from beginner to a point where I may use native sources without being overwhelmed. Other than this, manuals and textbooks that devote more space to explaining and talking about the features of a language rather than provide actual content in the language itself in abundant quantities is something I find mostly useless and highly frustrating. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Michel1020 Tetraglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 5016 days ago 365 posts - 559 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish, Dutch | Message 20 of 38 19 October 2012 at 9:21am | IP Logged | ||
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Let us dream a moment.
maydayayday, would you fund the Rolls of languages learning ? Suppose you are a male fantasizing about over 6 feet 5 females from east of Togo and about learning islandic. We deliver you with a team of 5 such females - perfectly fluent in islandic. They bring to your home a perfect immersion environment. More they can carry out for you all the time eating tasks - giving you more time to learn. Of course this works too if you are a japanese female wanting to learn mandarin with a team of under 5 feet black skin males from Sweden. More than more if you do not have the space for 5 new persons in your home - we deliver you with a new home with the necessary space. maydayayday, I hope you are still reading because I would greatly enjoy if you could fund me writing a novel or some theatre or short novels - if it has to be something related to languages learning, I will try to keep my work easy to read by non native french learners and we could also make an audio version that fit my text. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| petteri Triglot Senior Member Finland Joined 4931 days ago 117 posts - 208 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, Swedish Studies: German, Spanish | Message 21 of 38 19 October 2012 at 11:09am | IP Logged | ||
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The track leading from the no man's land of lower intermediate level towards the haven of advanced idiom owner is evidently uncharted, unbearably insecure and absolutely onerous.
How the path running from B1 to C1 could be properly guided? I reckon the key challenge is sheer volume. Lower intermediate student possibly knows 5000-8000 items, but an advanced speaker needs a massive heap of 25000-50000 items, words, idioms, use cases, rules and structures. Edited by petteri on 19 October 2012 at 12:51pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Majka Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic kofoholici.wordpress Joined 4656 days ago 307 posts - 755 votes Speaks: Czech*, German, English Studies: French Studies: Russian | Message 22 of 38 19 October 2012 at 11:53am | IP Logged | ||
I suspect an ideal book guiding us from B1/B2 to C1 wouldn't be a "language book" as such, but a "how to continue" guide - a compendium of tips found here, overview of different methods (shadowing, LR, extensive and intensive reading, SRS, wordlists, Goldlist, possibly software like tagger, concondancer, sub2srs, ...) with examples and list of books, newspapers and magazines suitable for learning. And tips like "to learn vocabulary around home, garden, living, buy 2-3 "Home and Garden" magazines, read it from the first to the last page :) And a list of useful internet addresses - starting with this one... Edited by Majka on 19 October 2012 at 3:46pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5380 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 23 of 38 19 October 2012 at 3:40pm | IP Logged | ||
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Some more food for thought --
Earlier in the year, I did a series of lessons for Frenchpod101.com. They aren't up online yet. It became obvious to me that when you try to squeeze the material you want to teach into a very specific format, you have to make some compromises. Of course, if you didn't follow any established pattern, you'd have to create your own because the course does need some sort of continuity, and you'd eventually be making compromises anyway -- though probably not as many. In any case, before I began the series, I had a very well defined agenda. I knew exactly what I wanted to cover, both grammar and vocabulary. Then I tried to squeeze that into the dialogues, which I think is the core of any course. If the dialogues are fun AND present all the material for the lesson, then the lesson almost writes itself. Another thing I did is that I wanted to ensure some continuity from lesson to lesson. First of all, I made sure I knew when word were introduced, and I kept reusing them in the following lessons -- I think this is much more effective that starting anew every time and having every lesson present entirely different vocab and challenges. Also, instead of creating 25 completed disjointed lessons, I created a single story spread over 25 lessons. We all know people notoriously quit mid-way through any method, so hopefully, people will want to know what happens next (almost like a soap), and it can help retain some learners. I think most books present lessons as if they were classes and each one is completely new and disconnected, but the user has a book in his hands (ok, doesn't work for podcats) and I think there has to be some continuity. And it has to be fun! Edited by Arekkusu on 19 October 2012 at 3:42pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7155 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 24 of 38 19 October 2012 at 7:24pm | IP Logged | ||
I think that having a coherent storyline is helpful, but a course that's supposed be the primary course for an independent learner should leave the user with a sense of verifiable or credible achievement. This acheivement can be gleaned from how well the learner can use what he/she has learned when taking in authentic material and/or dealing with native speakers, yet development of this ability means some sort of practice i.e. the course better have a substantial amount of exercises (of which most are linked to an answer key). The best self-instructional courses that I've used are TY Estonian and Beginning Slovak and neither of these used continuous storylines or chapters devoted to reviewing previous chapters' material. What made them effective was the high amount of exercises relative to grammatical topics in addition to tacit reinforcement of what was introduced in preceding sections. No need to interrupt the learning sequence. It felt damned good when what I learned turned out to be readily usable and retainable when I put my skills to the test. Besides, the course's author/s should assume that his/her/their course for beginners will be the primary source of input in the target language for the prospective user. It pays then to make a positive first impression by laying a solid base of knowledge in the target language that will be readily useable and retainable by learners that could encourage them to continue if the experience increases their desire to refine their knowledge. However the old FSI basic courses don't score as high with me despite their appearing to be logical extensions of my ideal for DIY-courses. Then again, they're not all that comparable since they were meant to be supplements for study at home while the students were attending classes. In addition, the sheer amount of drills can be mentally exhausting which can unduly offset the benefit or thrill that I'd derive from being able to use readily and fluently what's being taught. Basically I'm willing to sacrifice some fun (but not all of it) in the learning process if I know that I'll have fun when I can use fluently what's being taught. Looking only for fun in the process seems misguided to me, and reminds me of the current pedagogical phobia of rote or mechanical teaching techniques as these do not focus on the thrill of the process (as is in vogue) but rather the thrill of mastery/retention (which seems oddly secondary in more than enough teachers' minds for my purposes) Of the courses that I've completed which used a continuous storyline, "Czesc, jak sie masz?" for beginners in Polish was the best but it backed up its incipient love triangle for a storyline with plenty of exercises (and no-nonsense explanations of grammar to boot). Finnish for Foreigners also scores high for me even though its storyline is pedestrian and not closely followed. It's all in how well I come out understanding what the chapter's grammatical focus is stemming from the high quantity and quality of the exercises accompanying the pithy but conventional notes on grammar. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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