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TAC 2013 - Wort - Team Romulan/Mir | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Toffeeliz Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5678 days ago 116 posts - 130 votes  Speaks: English*, Mandarin Studies: Russian | Message 33 of 49 27 January 2013 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Keep at it, Wort! I got my Grandma, a Spanish learner too, Harry Potter one for her
birthday; she says it's good! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5054 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 34 of 49 27 January 2013 at 9:55pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
The situation with L is special. Unlike other pairs of consonats, the hard L is marked, it is always velarized and dental. So the Norwegian (as well as most other Ls) seem soft to a Russian ear, although they are harder than the Russian soft L. Another thing is that for л/ль all positions are strong. The hard L can appear before or after soft consonants, and the soft L too. (BTW is it a soft L or the soft L?). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5224 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 35 of 49 28 January 2013 at 1:30pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Sorry, when to use the indeterminate, determinate, or no article is highly dependent on context -- there's no general answer ;(
Idem here. What are "strong positions"? Edited by mrwarper on 28 January 2013 at 1:30pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5054 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 36 of 49 28 January 2013 at 2:41pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
But here what article should I use? "marked" means that an L is soft unless it is really hard (velarized), while most other consonants are hard unless they are really palatalized. "strong positions" means that both sounds can appear there. волна - вольна, волне - вольнее. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4842 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 37 of 49 28 January 2013 at 3:18pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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It's up to you which article you want to use in this case. If you say "the hard L" you're talking about the hard L in general. If you say "a hard L" you mean an arbitrary hard L. In your sentence there wouldn't be a change in meaning though, so you can use both.
EDIT: Interesting discussion, by the way! Edited by Josquin on 28 January 2013 at 3:42pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5224 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 38 of 49 28 January 2013 at 5:24pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Sorry, I thought you meant 'in general' because as our German godfather Josquin promptly pointed out, either one will do in your post -- we might try and find differences in meaning if we change your phrase "the hard L" to "a hard L" or "hard Ls" but it'd be pretty much hair-splitting.
Invaluable, thanks a million!
Mmmh. So, if I understood it, ANY word that has an 'л' can also have an 'ль' instead (aren't there minimal word pairs where changing 'л' <-> 'ль' changes meaning?) but with other consonants, one of them is somehow not to be found in some positions? Could you give us an example? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5054 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 39 of 49 28 January 2013 at 5:48pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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In Spanish at the beginning of words only the rr sound can be found, at the end - only
the r sound. These are weak positions for this pair of sounds. But between vowels both a flap and a trill can be found (pero - perro). This a strong position for them. Any word with an л could be pronounced with an ль instead, you are right. Of course there are many words which are distinguished only by these sounds: стал (became) - сталь (steel), лук - люк, лак - ляг and many others. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5054 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 40 of 49 28 January 2013 at 6:03pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I have already given an example волна (wave) - вольна ((she) is free). Both sounds appear before a consonant - in the weakest position for hard/soft consonants. One could not find a soft labial in this position, for example. It also means that л is never assimilated (and does not usually assimilate itself). In the word песня c is automatically soft because of the soft н. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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