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Motivating yourself more effectively | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| OCCASVS Tetraglot Senior Member Poland Joined 6645 days ago 134 posts - 140 votes  1 sounds Speaks: Italian*, English, French, Polish | Message 9 of 53 23 August 2008 at 3:25pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Thank you for your contribution!
Your analysis on motivation is very interesting. I've just noticed that I haven't got any negative motivators. So, even if I really want to learn certain languages, I just "escape" difficult situations by not studying. I've never thought of negative consequencies.
What kinds of rewards do you suggest? Should they be related to one's language learning? Edited by OCCASVS on 23 August 2008 at 3:26pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jimmymac Senior Member United Kingdom strange-lands.com/le Joined 6155 days ago 276 posts - 362 votes Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, French | Message 10 of 53 23 August 2008 at 5:53pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Leosmith,
You remarked 'going through all your steps would definitely hurt my motivation'. I will refer you to my first post in which I said this was not a rigid framework. Take from it what you will. I'm not asking you to accept all that I say or any of what I say. However there isn't a single aspect that I have mentioned that hasn't been researched to a significant degree. What I find incongruent is your statement that many bite off more than they can chew and go on to make necessary adjustments; hence wasting valuable time. Yet you criticize a systematic approach. I wonder how much time you would have saved by following a methodological approach at the beginning. By following at least a few of the aforementioned steps you would have seen well in advance that you would have bitten off more than you can chew; thus saving yourself a lot of time. You express doubt about this so called 'artificial motivation' but I believe there is no such thing. Either you are motivated by a thought or you are not. There is nothing artificial about it. There are hopefully some people here who will take some good things from these posts and I personally would do not feel good about labeling someone else's motivation 'fake' or 'artificial'. Finally, you claim I am trying to systematize something that doesn't take well to systematizing. I have to strongly disagree with you here. How can say that language, which is based on a system of rules, does not take well systematization? I appreciate your valid criticisms, however, I would also appreciate it, and it would certainly be more beneficial for viewers, if you could offer adjustments to the framework, your own methodology (if you have one) or any hints and tips that have helped you along the way. I would like this to be as educational, instead of one-way critical, as possible. OCCASVS, I would recommend rewarding yourself with whatever you want and mainly after situations where it was particularly difficult to motivate yourself to study but you managed it anyway. Often simply achieving something in the target language, like reading an article with ease, is reward enough. However, be creative, what ever puts a smile on your face. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6552 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 11 of 53 24 August 2008 at 2:25am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Your whole post was about this incredibly rigid framework. That's why your disclaimer didn't make any sense, so I ignored it.
Baloney
"Wasting time" in language learning is inevitable. And your setting up goals and schedules, visualizing, etc, will waste a lot more time, as well as be demotivating in the end. Also, wasted time on an inefficient method is better than wasted time doing the non-language related exercises of yours.
As a novice language learner, I tried many systematic approaches. I have several other friends that did the same. We have all shied away from them now. They are inflexible, inefficient, and not fun. Give me a little trial and error any day.
Totally agree. So why are you trying to get people to set up these artificial motivations, if you yourself don't believe in them?
That's a strong hint that you feel there is something wrong with some people's motivations. Could you explain? I'm sure nobody would take offense.
Did you read the thread that I gave a link to in my last post? Language learning isn't like learning math. What is your opinion of the first post of that thread? Sounds a lot like you. Maybe his method will work for you.
Am I allowed to make criticism, or only "valid" criticism?
I don't have a specific "methodology" for staying motivated. I find the whole concept silly. I could provide a few tips for keeping a positive attitude, but nothing that could be called a method. But I think the most beneficial thing I can do for readers is address your first post.
Totally agree. It goes without saying. So why say it? Do you think there are a lot of languages learners out there who don't know what they want out of a language?
Sounds good. I have nothing against setting goals. A lot of other people do of course, perhaps the majority of people on this board, but I don't.
The FSI rating scale is based on classroom hours. There is a lot of additional time to be spent outside of class too. This is a sure way to set yourself up for failure. Why not avoid setting time limits on fluency? It's much less stressful.
things and going with what you like the most. It's not something you can figure out ahead of time. Again, why get so anal about this?
about something that's going to change. It's a moving target. Give yourself a break, and be flexible. I don't have a problem with a fun learning log, where you write out things when you feel like it, but what you suggest is quite different.
Pure masochism. I'm guessing this spreadsheet is set up for aspiring polyglots, which is a special breed even on this forum. This type of intensive scheduling would be a major motivation killer in the average language learner. They'd spend hours setting it up, and most likely drop it after a few weeks when things change, or they get too busy, or something else. Why set themselves up for a fall?
What about when you don't reach one? People don't reward themselves enough these days.
That's silly psychobabble. Dig deep enough, and you'll find out you're in love with your mother, right? Who cares. If it feels good, go for it.
Wow, so I don't really speak any languages, because I didn't do what you say. Dag nab it!
Your chances may be improved, but I find your lingo to be extreme.
Why do people resort to analogies? This one is particularly ridiculous.
Sounds like a lot of unnecessary work. We have to visualize now too? Do you believe in all that "every day, in every way, I'm getting better and better" jazz?
You talk about David Beckham and ProfArgualles, but never once mention regular exercise in your post. It's been proven to be much better for your attitude than psycho therapy, for example.
Terrible advice. Negative motivation backfires very easily. But you know this, if you have the educational background that you claim to have. Why go against your teaching? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| zenmonkey Bilingual Tetraglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6554 days ago 803 posts - 1119 votes 1 sounds Speaks: EnglishC2*, Spanish*, French, German Studies: Italian, Modern Hebrew | Message 12 of 53 24 August 2008 at 3:51am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I've looked at that spreadsheet and do not find it useful at all. It's mostly a tracking sheet, more a "what I've done", rather than a goal management tool. But I do find one thing useful in your thinking - breaking goals into tasks: I want to learning German. For me the level of fluency I want can be summed into a couple simple phrases. I want: - Reading - comfortable reading novels, e-mail and newspapers with a level that I only need to look up 1 to 2 words per page. - Writing - capable of expressing myself clearly and without faults in an eMail or letter or forum post. - Listening and comprehesion - understand most films, radio and conversation in a group, some Bayerisch clarity. - Speaking - clearly understood in everyday interactions, capable to give a presentation in German, hold a meeting, give directions From that, to break one of them into task and then periodize them, makes sense to me. For example, I can identify how many reading pages I think I need and break that down to weekly or daily targets. You can do this systematically but takes large efforts in tracking and documenting or you can study and sort of soft-analyze it. It truly depends on what is best for each one of us. I have not seen a single one-size-fits-all method in language learning, weight loss or sports training. (all areas that interest me). But Plan, Track and Adjust based on Objectives certainly helps me. Edited by zenmonkey on 24 August 2008 at 3:52am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jimmymac Senior Member United Kingdom strange-lands.com/le Joined 6155 days ago 276 posts - 362 votes Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, French | Message 13 of 53 24 August 2008 at 8:47am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Leosmith,
Please see below some qoutes from you. 'Do you believe in all that "every day, in every way, I'm getting better and better jazz?' 'you'll find out you're in love with your mother, right?' 'I ignored it' 'Baloney' 'Sounds a lot like you' 'Pure masochism' 'That's silly psychobabble' I had the intention of exchanging intelligent discourse when I started this thread but now I have found myself replying to someone who calls all this 'motivation stuff' 'silly'. Despite the fact that some form of motivation or another drives every single behaviour we have. Successful businesses are built on them. Athletes careers are engined by them. Lives are changed by them. But to you they are simply 'silly'. Thank you for the insight. I have adressed your points below. Leosmith-'Your whole post was about this incredibly rigid framework. That's why your disclaimer didn't make any sense, so I ignored it.' Some people read a thread and choose to see it as a take it or leave it scenario. Others read a thread and choose take from it what they find useful. Leosmith-'Baloney' Please see below and refer to their reference sections for further reading. Deci E, Ryan R (1985) Intrinsic Motivation and Self-determination in Human Behavior, New York: Plenum Dale H. Schunk (1995) Self-efficacy, motivation, and performance, Journal of Applied Sport Psychology. Furthermore, research on the Health Belief Model belief model in psychology has demonstrated how powerful negative motivators are. Leosmith-'Also, wasted time on an inefficient method is better than wasted time doing the non-language related exercises of yours' It took me an hour to set up my plan for french. Is that so bad? Leosmith-'As a novice language learner, I tried many systematic approaches. I have several other friends that did the same. We have all shied away from them now. They are inflexible, inefficient, and not fun. Give me a little trial and error any day.' They are as flexible, inefficient, and as fun as you make them. This is your plan. YOU design it. Leosmith-'Totally agree. So why are you trying to get people to set up these artificial motivations, if you yourself don't believe in them?' You have completely missed my point. Unless you are administering a drug to induce motivation or some other foreign element the motivation cannot be artificial. If a thought motivates then why not think it? What is so bad about this? Some of us cannot 'fall in love' with a language as you can. I love my family and friends and sometimes my cat. I enjoy language learning and the things I can achieve with it. Thats all. Leosmith-'That's a strong hint that you feel there is something wrong with some people's motivations. Could you explain? I'm sure nobody would take offense?' Im sure everyone can see your intentions here. I would never question a persons motivation. If it works then keep it. Leomsith-'Did you read the thread that I gave a link to in my last post? Language learning isn't like learning math. What is your opinion of the first post of that thread? Sounds a lot like you. Maybe his method will work for you.' When did I say language learning was like learning math? You obviously do not believe in systimatic learning. I strongly urge you not to use Assimil, FSI, Pimsleur and just about any other course out there as they are all based to some extent on systematic learning. Leosmith-'Am I allowed to make criticism, or only "valid" criticism?' Valid criticism. Labelling something as 'silly' may be constructive for you but not to me and the others here who looking for useful ideas. Leosmith-'Totally agree. It goes without saying. So why say it? Do you think there are a lot of languages learners out there who don't know what they want out of a language?' Yes. There are many out there who are just only finding their feet in this business and I would never be so arrogant as to assume that they can 'do without' certain points. I wrote it so that it may assist someone at some point. That is all. Even if was so blatant to others. Leosmith-'The FSI rating scale is based on classroom hours. There is a lot of additional time to be spent outside of class too. This is a sure way to set yourself up for failure. The FSI rating scale was a simple example, nothing more. Leosmith-'Good luck in finding exact steps that won't change'. At what point did I say steps won't change? Leosmith-'Pure masochism. I'm guessing this spreadsheet is set up for aspiring polyglots' Its a spreadsheet Leosmith. That is all. Something which can be changed to suit your needs. Earlier you criticised my use of intense wording. 'Pure masochism' is far from passive. And I might pollitely ask you not to refer to anything I do as 'masochistic' . Leosmith-'What about when you don't reach one? People don't reward themselves enough these days' Brilliant! Britain and the US both have rising obesity levels, with spending into the trillions every year on different forms of entertainment, fashion, and vacations. I know of only a few people personally who have dedicated themselves to constant hard work with few rewards. Otherwise I see all around me on a daily basis people who constantly reward themselves with food, music, movies, tv, socialising, games, alcohol. Leosmith-'That's silly psychobabble. Dig deep enough, and you'll find out you're in love with your mother, right? Who cares. If it feels good, go for it.' 'if it feels good go for it'. My dad had throat cancer because somking felt good and went for it. Drug abusers initially take drugs as a result of the good feeling. Sweet food tastes good, go for it. Work doesn't feel good. Don't go for it. Unfortunately, somethings that are not intially enjoyable for us do lead to greater rewards. Not everythings is so basic and black and white. Jimmymac- 'If your reasons are so incredibly compelling then you will be able to achieve it at all cost.' Leosmith-'Your chances may be improved, but I find your lingo to be extreme.' does that make it incorrect? if the life of a loved one was in danger and I had to complete some form of achievable task then I would do it at all costs, wouldn't you? Leosmith-'Why do people resort to analogies? This one is particularly ridiculous' People resort to analogies so that their message can be given in a number of different modes; therefore increasing the likeliness of being understood. I refer you to any book written by Milton H. Erickson. Leosmith-'Sounds like a lot of unnecessary work. We have to visualize now too? Do you believe in all that "every day, in every way, I'm getting better and better" jazz?' Have you ever imagined yourself speaking a language? If yes then that is vizualisation. Nothing fancy or new age about it. Once again there is a vast amount of research, especially within the sport of cricket, on the effects of visualization. 'every day, in every way, I'm getting better and better" jazz' Once again Leosmith, thank you for the intelligent discourse. Leosmith-'You talk about David Beckham and ProfArgualles, but never once mention regular exercise in your post. It's been proven to be much better for your attitude than psycho therapy, for example.' When did I mention psychotherapy? I absolutely agree with your point on exercise. In fact in my first post mentioned that I run and play football. I wrote a post about motivation but of course I have not included absolutely everyting. Eating a healthy diet increases wellbeing and motivation. Being in healthy relationships increases wellbieng and motivation. But I didn't think they were initially relevant. Its intersting that I ask you on two occasion to offer advice and on both occasions you offered nothing. Now, instead offering exercise as a good addition to someones studies and improving the value of this thread you use it in a way to show faults in my original post. Leosmith-'Terrible advice. Negative motivation backfires very easily. But you know this, if you have the educational background that you claim to have. Why go against your teaching?' I will happily PM you referees at the institutions I have studied for validation to my claims. 'Negative motivation backfires very easily' please do elaborate on this with regards to the examples i have given so far. Despite popular belief people are not fragile objects on the brink of breakdown. I fail to see how a simple language learning program would have such negative consequences. One of the main points here is the inclusion of negative motivation and whether or not it is useful. Let me put it to you that with every positive motivator you will have a negative motivator. For example, a person who is learning a language to gain a job is equally motivated by not gaining that job. I'm sure if you're creative enough will find that even you may have negative motivators. Finally, those of you, like me, who can't fall in love with a language and dont find the idea of motiavtion 'silly', I encourage you take with you only those things that you find useful. Zenmonkey, Yes I edited the sheet rather alot to suit my needs. You are right it is a traking sheet. It allows you to see concrete figures which has helped to keep on track and monitor progress. It's like recording progress with weight training, which I have also found to be incredibly useful. Also, you are exactly right in that you must taylor everything to suit your own learning. The beauty of what you have written is that you chunked the steps into levels that are confortable for you. Perfect, and yes flexibility is key. thanks for adding that. I don't think I emphasized it enough. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
 Hencke Tetraglot Moderator Spain Joined 6896 days ago 2340 posts - 2444 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Finnish, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Mandarin Personal Language Map | Message 14 of 53 24 August 2008 at 9:31am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Same thing here. I am dedicating the same, or more time to learning, but as it turned out I didn't have the energy or the motivation to keep blogging about it. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| NJMaverick Newbie United States Joined 6157 days ago 34 posts - 36 votes Studies: English*, Portuguese | Message 15 of 53 24 August 2008 at 10:10am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I've never seen a poster as negative as "leosmith" on this board. I think I will ignore his posts from now on.
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| Jimmymac Senior Member United Kingdom strange-lands.com/le Joined 6155 days ago 276 posts - 362 votes Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, French | Message 16 of 53 24 August 2008 at 10:17am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Hencke,
I'm delighted your more interested in learning than updating your blog. I invite you to offer some insights as to what things have motivated you down the years. Please can I reiterate what I said in an earlier post. I'm in no way saying that every personal journal has ended due to a lack of motivation to carry on learning. I'm glad you have chosen to contribute and i would like for you to add to the discussion if you so desire. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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