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Motivating yourself more effectively | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6552 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 17 of 53 24 August 2008 at 9:27pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
You are evidently a big believer in Psychology. I am not. This may explain some of our differences of opinion.
It's not motivation that I find objectionable. It's creating a rigid, time consuming, detailed system to stay motivated that I find objectionable.
Your original statement was:
I don't believe the articles you post cover every single aspect of your first post. I think you are exaggerating.
If everything you've talked about, including all the unnecessary hoops you'll be jumping through to keep your program intact only takes a total of 1 hour, than no, not at all.
Why would I do that? It's an unnecessary restriction.
Nothing at all. Maybe I did miss your point. I thought you were asking us to dig deep and find the real reasons for learning a language, and use those reasons to intensify our motivations. IMO, digging deep and finding accurate reasons is impossible. If you use these false results as motivation, they would be false motivations. If that's not what you meant, I apologize.
I think your point is that because of this you need a system for staying motivated, right? I also don't fall in love with languages, but I don't need a system to stay motivated.
Agreed. I had the impression that you were trying to be politically correct by not dragging people's motivations through the mud. I was wrong, so I apologize.
Yes, I learn certain aspects of certain languages systematically. The better I get at language learning, the less systematic I get. Question - is the degree of systematic learning in the first post of that thread beyond what you would be comfortable with?
Ok, I'll drop the labels, but continue to disagree with what I consider to be poor advice. I'm sorry if I hurt you feelings.
Understood. Since it is an example that could lead to a great deal of disappointment, I oppose you using it as an example without some qualifications.
As you wish.
True, but I also see a lot of driven, unhappy people. I think if they would reward themselves more frequently, they would be more happy. To only reward oneself only for reaching a specific goal seem a little cruel to me, but if it works for you, go for it.
Using analogies makes me think your argument is very weak. We are talking about language learning here, so I don't consider your comparison accurate.
Yes it is incorrect. Wanting something really bad does not ensure it will happen. Your analogy is irrelevant of course, because it's an analogy, but I might point out that it doesn't even address this particular point.
Good point. They are used to explain things. They are quite irrelevant when arguing or debating, even though some people are taken in by them.
I guess it depends on what you mean by imagine. I sometimes think about what I just said, or what I'm going to say. Outside of that, not really. If that's all you meant, then I apologize.
Another analogy. I will say there is no proof that it actually makes a difference in sports, not that that would prove anything about language learning.
Both times you asked for advice, I believe your intentions were to get me out of your hair. Sort of a "make little adjustments to my program, but don't you dare argue that the whole thing is invalid". I think that is why you see my advice not as advice, but as a way to show faults in your original post.
Yes please. I'd like to speak with a professor that teaches her students that people should concentrate on negative motivation factors to improve language learning. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jimmymac Senior Member United Kingdom strange-lands.com/le Joined 6155 days ago 276 posts - 362 votes Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, French | Message 18 of 53 25 August 2008 at 4:20am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Leosmith,
Thanks for the reply. I found your arguments to be much stronger than in previous posts, however, with comments such as 'I'm sorry if I hurt you feelings' when no such feelings were mentioned I am lead to end this dialogue with you. I've addressed a few of your points below. Jimmymac wrote: 'This is your plan. YOU design it.' Leosmith-'Why would I do that? It's an unnecessary restriction.' Leosmith if designing a plan doesn't work for you then thats fine. I find it impossible to imagine that you simply float unpredicatbly to whatever learning material happens to be in the vicinity and start learning impromptu. There must some level of planning in advance there, if it isn't written down then it is certainly in your head. I dont see why you have to be so black and white on the subject. Personally, regarding languages I have great respect for ProfArgualles, as do many on this forum, and by his posts one can clearly see a strong systematic approach to his language learning. Noone can doubt his credentials. Leosmith considers what I say to be bad advice. As a consequence he considers the advice of many motivational theorist to be inept as well. These are not my theories but things that have truly helped me down the line. Leosmith says you cant motivate yourself by finding previously unknown motivators, well I'm an example of how that is false. 'Jimmymac wrote: there isn't a single aspect that I have mentioned that hasn't been researched to a significant degree.' Leosmith- 'I don't believe the articles you post cover every single aspect of your first post. I think you are exaggerating.' I offered you these articles becuase of their significant reference section. If you sought the references you will see that ALL of the steps have indeed been researched to a significant degree. These points are nothing new. Leosmith-'digging deep and finding accurate reasons is impossible' 'impossible'? Please do elaborate on this, because as far psychology is concerned you seem to have far greater insights into this matter than all of those who have dedicated their lives to understanding the psyche. Leosmith- 'is the degree of systematic learning in the first post of that thread beyond what you would be comfortable with?' I personally found it to be ok. I dont agree with the timescales. I believe much more time is needed for the language to become instinctual. Leosmith-'To only reward oneself only for reaching a specific goal seem a little cruel to me, but if it works for you, go for it.' Please enlighten us all to when I actually said 'only reward yourself for reaching a goal'? I have said no such thing. My statement was simply for a person to reward themselves when reaching a goal. That is all. But of course you've done a very good job of twisting the point to make it sound almost inhumane. Non of this is torture, Leosmith. Its all fairly simple. Leomsith-'Wanting something really bad does not ensure it will happen' Once again, when did I say wanting something really bad would make it happen?. I said if you had 'compelling reasons'. Theres a big difference there. Many people want to quit smoking but dont. But as soon as they recieve an unfortunate medical diagnosis many of them are very quick to stop. They are given a 'compelling reason'. Leosmith-'there is no proof that it actually makes a difference in sports, not that that would prove anything about language learning.' 'no proof'? Please do read around regarding the effects of visualization before maing such a claim. Leosmith-'Both times you asked for advice, I believe your intentions were to get me out of your hair. Sort of a "make little adjustments to my program, but don't you dare argue that the whole thing is invalid". I think that is why you see my advice not as advice, but as a way to show faults in your original post.' I have said on a number of occasions that I welcome intelligent criticism; meaning, you criticise my framework but then offer your own beliefs as an alternative. All I see from your previous dialogues is cutting remarks and a distinct lack of wanting to further our knowledge of the learn/motivation process. This whole website isn't about you Leosmith. It's about learnign languages and I simply encourage to put your ideas in place of mine as an alternative. Leosmith-'If everything you've talked about, including all the unnecessary hoops you'll be jumping through to keep your program intact only takes a total of 1 hour, than no, not at all' Remember, this is your plan it can be as detailed and time consuming as you want. This is something you're clearly struggling with. Jimmymac-'The FSI rating scale was a simple example, nothing more.' Leosmith-'Understood. Since it is an example that could lead to a great deal of disappointment, I oppose you using it as an example without some qualifications.' I agree with you here maybe I was a bit hasty in putting it in as an example. Please, if you can offer a better alternative then let us know. I believe we have thrashed out and made clear the points on which we disagree. I really cannot devote so much time to these consistently long replies that, unfortunately, are not going in any particular direction. I do thank you for your contribution though. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| charlmartell Super Polyglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6246 days ago 286 posts - 298 votes Speaks: French, English, German, Luxembourgish*, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, Dutch, Italian, Latin, Ancient Greek Studies: Mandarin, Japanese | Message 19 of 53 25 August 2008 at 4:34am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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And so the debate goes on and on. I think Leosmith and Jimmymac are now ready to join the Volte and Cainntear Debating Society.
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| Gilgamesh Tetraglot Senior Member England Joined 6244 days ago 452 posts - 468 votes 14 sounds Speaks: Dutch, English, German, French Studies: Polish | Message 20 of 53 25 August 2008 at 5:31am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Well, last time I looked, this was a forum. If you want concise, easily digestable one-liner messages maybe this is not the place for you. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jimmymac Senior Member United Kingdom strange-lands.com/le Joined 6155 days ago 276 posts - 362 votes Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, French | Message 21 of 53 25 August 2008 at 7:07am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Well said Gilgamesh. While I disagree with Leosmith I admire the fact that he took the time to write such lengthy replies, rather than one-lined sarcastic comments which so often blight internet forums.
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| charlmartell Super Polyglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6246 days ago 286 posts - 298 votes Speaks: French, English, German, Luxembourgish*, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, Dutch, Italian, Latin, Ancient Greek Studies: Mandarin, Japanese | Message 22 of 53 25 August 2008 at 10:02am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Well, you had obviously not read this thread or you would have realised that what was going on towards the end of it was a sparring contest between 2 members. With the result, in Jimmymac's own words:
That is what debating societies are for, thrashing out and making clear points people disagree on. Without ever reaching a consensus. So I made a joke. Not a sarcastic remark because, as I fully agree with leosmith, I certainly wouldn't want to offend him. I would think he was just baiting you, and you fell for it. You take yourself far too seriously. Learning, any learning, is supposed to be an enjoyable activity, rewarding per se. Not regimented, artificially motivated - the stick and the carrot - hard work. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| DaraghM Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 6153 days ago 1947 posts - 2923 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Russian, Hungarian | Message 23 of 53 25 August 2008 at 10:27am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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The problem is not one of motivation, but what causes demotivation, and this has been discussed before, like here.
My advice, which probably goes against the mainstream, but works for me, 1. Use interesting material, and that means material that is interesting to you. 2. Don't set long term goals. 3. Tackle more than one language at the same time. 4. If you've never used a learning log, start one, as it provides a useful mechanism for analysing where the time goes. I found it very useful, but it is time consuming, and once you've established a good pattern, you can probably abandon it. 5. If you're not progressing, change your learning material, techniques or methods. Edited by DaraghM on 25 August 2008 at 10:28am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jimmymac Senior Member United Kingdom strange-lands.com/le Joined 6155 days ago 276 posts - 362 votes Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, French | Message 24 of 53 25 August 2008 at 10:54am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Charlmartell-'Learning, any learning, is supposed to be an enjoyable activity'
I have two difficulties with this statement. Firstly, it implies that when aspects of the learning get tough one should abandon it. But in reality sometimes learning is tough and we need to find a way push ourselves through. I wish I could really enjoy any and all aspects of learning like you do but I just don't have that ability. The second problem is that your assuming a structured approach does not allow for enjoyment. Well the pleasure I have felt during my studies must be some false or some negative emotion posing as a good one. Also, I'll say it again for those of you who must continue to ovelook it. A plan is designed by YOU. It is as fun as YOU make it. Finally, I don't see why you have to make a judgement on my personality type and how very serious I take myself. Maybe if I go from thread to thread making one-liners without actually contributing then I'll be seen as 'cool'. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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