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What does "basic fluency" really mean? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6767 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes  Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek | Message 97 of 106 04 October 2006 at 7:49am | IP Logged | |||||
In other words, they skipped the most important and difficult parts of learning a language, treating English as a mere system of rules for arranging letters on a page. That works for dead languages, but not for living. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| lady_skywalker Triglot Senior Member Netherlands aspiringpolyglotblog Joined 6889 days ago 909 posts - 942 votes Speaks: Spanish, English*, Mandarin Studies: Japanese, French, Dutch, Italian | Message 98 of 106 04 October 2006 at 8:24am | IP Logged | |||||
Sounds a lot like the system they have for learning English in Taiwan. Several years of English in school and, most likely, cram lessons and yet unable to construct even the most basic of sentences! A good many of them can read English to a relatively high level but even writing is a challenge, as I've seen for myself in some of the CVs and personal statements I had to edit. Having said all that, I always feel a lot more comfortable with learning to read a language than speak it so... :) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| lengua Senior Member United States polyglottery.wordpre Joined 6683 days ago 549 posts - 595 votes Studies: French, Italian, Spanish, German | Message 99 of 106 04 October 2006 at 8:53am | IP Logged | |||||
Yup. This is why I'm such a big fan of learning to speak and learning to listen. Reading and writing are easier to get down (languages without alphabets aside) because the information is always right in front of you - on paper. But you don't get a transcript when someone is talking to you. You don't get to write your thoughts down when having a conversation with someone. Therefore, if you can get the 'social' part of the language down, the 'intellectual' aspect will come easier. But it doesn't work nearly as effectively in the other direction. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Clintaroo Diglot Senior Member Australia Joined 6870 days ago 189 posts - 201 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: Tagalog, Indonesian | Message 100 of 106 04 October 2006 at 10:49am | IP Logged | |||||
Not at all. You are not alone! Two months ago, who would have thought that I'd be interested in learning Tagalog? I would think that there's not much money in Tagalog. I'm learning a little bit before my trip to the Philippines for purely cultural reasons and interest. I don't need to learn Tagalog, but I want to. In fact, people say to me 'You can just speak English there, you know. Why bother?' In my opinion, that attitude smacks of laziness. Some friends of mine have been abroad and didn't even know 'hello' in their destination country's language. Surely one would know 'hello' at least! When I go abroad, I want to engage with locals. I want them to be surprised that the guy with blonde hair and blue eyes has actually bothered to learn some of the local language! I don't know... maybe I'm just different. But that's why I'm here. For what it's worth, in all of my language studies, listening is probably my worst skill. It's not utterly terrible, but I actually try and 'zone out' and get the gist of a dialogue rather than trying to pick every word. The way I remember vocabulary is by incorporating as many senses as possible. Speaking, listening, and even pointing to a rubbish bin and saying 'gomibako' in Japanese all help the acquisition process for me. Edited by Clintaroo on 04 October 2006 at 10:51am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| CaitO'Ceallaigh Triglot Senior Member United States katiekelly.wordpress Joined 6856 days ago 795 posts - 829 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Russian Studies: Czech, German | Message 101 of 106 05 October 2006 at 12:49pm | IP Logged | |||||
So riddle me this: I have some co-workers who learned English as a second language, and their English, written and spoken, could use a lot of help. This is an understatement. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be interested in trying to work on it, because as far as they're concerned, we have at least a mutual understanding, as difficult as it can be sometimes, on both sides. This is my observation and not theirs. What's happened is that over the years, most everyone's adjusted to their manner of speaking. Their writing skills are even worse, and I only say that because at least verbally, they can hand gestures and intonation to get a point across. The thing is, if you were to ask anyone in my office, they're all fluent in English. So this makes me really wonder what "basic fluency" really is. Does it mean communicating, using whatever tools you've got (body language, intonation, pounding on tables), or does it mean speaking as if you've been formally taught the language. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7204 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 102 of 106 05 October 2006 at 7:36pm | IP Logged | |||||
Once I was talking with my boss about the ESL speakers in the office and off the cuff I thought of them all as having advanced fluency, because I thought of several who are truly advanced. It wasn't until later that I thought of some exceptions. One is barely verbal, although he's been in country for over a decade. "Okay, I email to you". (I'm going to run the network scan like you've asked and I'll send you the results.) Another has been in the US for over 20 years, but has an extremely thick accent, uses filler words such as "like", and "you know" in every sentence and routinely makes grave grammatical errors. "We go like you know to his house and we like you say eat big meal in kitchen." (We went to his house and had a big meal in the kitchen). Another fellow is from a country that primarily speaks English, but they use a creole and his pronunciation and grammar selection is unusual for a US speaker. "Ees bes dat you talk clear and dey will know what you askin for". (It's better if you speak clearly so they'll understand what you want.) These three speakers made me wonder what this board's levels might be for these men. The first speaker seems to be an intermediate, although it's possible that his comprehension is better than that. The second I'd call "basically fluent", because he can get by in a job that requires communication with English only coworkers. The third speaker I'd say is "natively fluent", because although "he talk funny" his only language is English. Those rankings fit well with how easily it is to communicate with them as well. So maybe the ratings are all about the ability to communicate clearly. Edited by luke on 26 December 2006 at 9:32am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Sir Nigel Senior Member United States Joined 7103 days ago 1126 posts - 1102 votes 2 sounds | Message 103 of 106 05 October 2006 at 8:17pm | IP Logged | |||||
So then respond and say "no, I don't know". ;)
Might he speak a pigeon of English? I was recently looking at a pigeon and "how are your family?" is "how you people dey?" 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 Keith Diglot Moderator JapanRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6776 days ago 526 posts - 536 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: Mandarin Personal Language Map | Message 104 of 106 05 October 2006 at 10:20pm | IP Logged | |||||
I get by in a job that requires communication only in Japanese. Nobody I work with speaks English. I am at an intermediate level in Japanese. I have quite a ways to go before I become "basically fluent." 1 person has voted this message useful |
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