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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Juаn Senior Member Colombia Joined 5351 days ago 727 posts - 1830 votes  Speaks: Spanish* | Message 9 of 36 28 April 2013 at 4:09am | IP Logged |
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Actually I don't know what the Aspekte DVDs feature as I used em neu for B1-C1. According to their website they include a "film sequence" for every chapter along with photos and exercises. Other than actual audio recordings though, most of the time complements like DVDs, CD-ROMs, online access and such are fluff and not worth the price premium in my opinion, but that might not be the case in this specific instance.
If I were to learn German all over again however I'd probably choose Aspekte over em neu as I enjoyed Langenscheidt's A1-B1 series Optimal more than I did em neu. In the case of these B1-C1 series, B1+ indicates that the first book represents a bridge or transition between the B1 text of a previous A1-B1 series and the one from this one. After completing the C1 volume of either em neu or Aspekte you might want to turn to Das Oberstufenbuch. This sequence of textbooks, Optimal, Aspekte or em neu, and Das Oberstufenbuch will take you without fail to a point where you'll be able to tackle native materials successfully, and much, much farther than any Assimil or Linguaphone manual might. Just be aware you must be comfortable using monolingual resources. I actually very much prefer them to other types of materials, but there are those who cannot do without translations and explanations. Edited by Juаn on 28 April 2013 at 5:27pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Paco Senior Member Hong Kong Joined 4283 days ago 145 posts - 251 votes Speaks: Cantonese* | Message 10 of 36 28 April 2013 at 11:51am | IP Logged |
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I mostly appreciate the detailed response.
Do you mean the 5 series you have mentioned are superior in terms of quality of content? Do you give credit to the medium of instruction itself? I think language manuals roughly differ in 4 aspects: approach, level of content, quality of content, and medium of instruction. The first two have little room for discussion: you choose the right level, and you either select a comprehensive book or use multiple manuals of different approaches. The latter two, thus, might be the factors upon which decisions are made, especially when one is at more advanced levels where the toughest part is vocabulary acquisition. By "quality of content" I refer to the quality and naturalness of the texts chosen; whether the content is rich in culture and meaningful stuff; the sequence in which vocabulary and grammar are introduced; and the pace they are introduced. If monolingual materials are superior in content, I might consider using them. Why not monolingual? I have successfully learnt English with them. After kindergarten every book I used have been monolingual. Albeit the presence of a teacher, I have never learnt anything (seriously; a long story) from them, and textbooks are the sole sources. So it is possible - at least for me - to proceed with them. However, if the qualities of content are about the same, I would prefer bilingual because of my previous experience: Though the outcome is quite appreciable, my journey in English was tough. When I used the monolingual books I had to hack my way through it with a dictionary, parsing the text - and the instruction, which is not efficacious. On the contrary, the virtue of bilingual manuals is translations and explanations are readily available. Is it just that the English books I used were bad? Or did you also refer to a dictionary frequently with the 5 series you have mentioned? In any case, I MUST use the B2-C2 books you recommend. My philosophy is: When there are good readers and parallel texts of literature, use them; when there are good textbooks you find useful, even hold off the readers. (I hope in this way I can acquire vocabulary more efficaciously, hence being able to move on directly to great books, avoiding children's books and abridged texts.) But perhaps I will use them after the "advanced" - intermediate in fact - manuals of Assimil and the likes. (Looking forward to your further explanation) Would you also recommend a French counterpart of Das Oberstufenbuch? Edited by Paco on 28 April 2013 at 12:11pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Juаn Senior Member Colombia Joined 5351 days ago 727 posts - 1830 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 11 of 36 28 April 2013 at 6:27pm | IP Logged |
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There are two very significant advantages of this type of materials over your typical language learning manual. The first is that the content is entirely in the target language. For me the absolute worst kind of manual is one where you'll get three or four pages of explanations in the instruction language followed by four or five lines of the language you're actually studying. With monolingual resources you get 100% exposure to your target language out of your study time as opposed to wasting it reading in a language you already know and then maybe getting 20% or 30% reading time in the language you're attempting to learn. No matter how much you read about a language, its grammar and features, the only way you'll make any progress in actually assimilating it is by reading and listening to it. The rest is of marginal effect.
The second is that these series progress in a deliberate and methodical fashion from beginner to advanced, so you are sure that by following them you'll reach a point where you'll be able to effectively transition to native materials. With other types of manuals you are repeatedly exposed to the same beginner-lower intermediate proficiency level and seldom reach a genuine advanced stage. A strong caveat must be issued however and it is the one you mention. If you're not comfortable with monolingual materials and having constant recourse to a dictionary this method is not for you. I study by the computer and looking up unknown words here, here or even here takes but a few seconds, so it works perfectly well for me. However there are many who dislike and even advice again using a dictionary, thus it is up to every individual to decide what methods works best for her or him. Bear in mind though that beyond an intermediate level for the most part monolingual sources are all that will be available to you anyway. I wouldn't recommend however beginning a language with these series. Two or three Assimil, Living Language or Teach Yourself manuals will give you a good idea of how the language works and provide you with the basics upon which you can continue to grow. You can then for variety's sake as well to gain a rounder knowledge intersperse your journey with some advanced volumes from regular language teaching series such as Assimil's "Using" and "La Pratique" and diverse readers. As for a French C2 level manual, the last one from the Alter ego series is graded at that level. As a last stage there is the absolutely excellent series by Dover which features real literature, essay and philosophy in bilingual facing-page format which allows you to clarify any detail of usage, all in nicely printed and bound and very modestly priced volumes. There is also the less extensive but still much useful Penguin Parallel Text series. All this combined in the right order, you can be sure of reaching any level you wish in French and German that is allowed by the time you invest in it and not wandering form beginner's manual to beginner's manual without making substantive progress. 8 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Paco Senior Member Hong Kong Joined 4283 days ago 145 posts - 251 votes Speaks: Cantonese* | Message 12 of 36 28 April 2013 at 9:06pm | IP Logged |
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Invaluable advice!
I agree that actually using the target language is the most efficacious and the only way to really internalise the language. It is self-evident. Indeed, bilingual manuals are sometimes awful in that sense where there is little substance. In my opinion, even Assimil advanced courses are "acceptable" only. I prefer them only because they have translations - explanations are bonus, without which one can still assimilate. I can study with an online dictionary like you (Oxford Dictionary Online available in the big 4 European languages), but I make conscious effort to keep it to minimum. On one hand, it is less efficient than readily available translations. On the other, it might even be less helpful, since I would not need nor want detailed dictionary explanations unless I am quite advanced. I will not recommend starting out with monolingual books either. I have a studio d A1 textbook (used by Goethe Institut), and I almost turned the first chapters into bilingual materials... I have a series of Japanese manuals which brings students from presumably no knowledge to a point where they can carry out research on literature, contemporary and classical; it is written for Japanese majors in mainland China. Good things about it are its comprehensiveness and that the advanced books are written entirely in Japanese, which is good. My programme for German, French and Spanish (and Italian; after Latin): Assimil Without Toil (bilingual; as an overview) Made Simple (outline of grammar) Berlitz (some drills) Cortina (reference grammar) Passport Practice and Improve (first advanced manuals; listening) Then perhaps Assimil advanced and the likes Next the series you have mentioned; will do 1 or both Finally it will be readers and parallel texts That should make me invincible. Well, I mean I will have to stand alone by then. I wish I had not appeared to be a bit nervous nor giving idle talk. I cannot deny I somehow spend more time and effort planning than actually learning, for I do not want to repeat the mistake I made with English. To be honest, I have difficulty in reading real, great literature in English. I know I cannot use phrasal verbs, collocations and idioms actively, and my passive recognition of vocabulary is not worth mentioning. I am now re-learning English, which I wish I will not have to do with my future foreign languages. Thank you very much! 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Juаn Senior Member Colombia Joined 5351 days ago 727 posts - 1830 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 13 of 36 29 April 2013 at 12:04am | IP Logged |
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Truly bilingual courses such as Assimil are great. The issue with them is that they're not part of a progressive and comprehensive program and are simply not substantive enough to enable you to transition without much friction to native materials once you're done with them. Monolingual textbooks such as the ones referenced above provide you with a much more extensive and richer selection of texts, more intensively and effectively reinforce what you've already learnt, and progress from beginner to a level beyond which no further learning is necessary other than actually using the language in native settings.
But again, I cannot stress this enough, in order to pursue this route, you must be comfortable with using a dictionary frequently and with not being given a translation. It would also be best if you already have some knowledge of the language, perhaps gained through conventional types of manuals. May I ask what Japanese series you're referring to? It appears to be excellent. I have Minna no Nihongo and Shin Nihongo no Kiso. Your learning plan is sound. I would recommend doing different generations of Assimil concurrently, alternating one lesson from each book; it is a very effective combination. Other than this, I don't believe employing more than one standard monolingual textbook for each proficiency level is necessary. It is best to complement each of them with readers. They will provide you with variety, interesting readings and diverging settings. One truly great series I forgot to mention earlier is the Cours de langue et de civilisation françaises by G. Mauger. The problem with it is that the third and fourth books are out-of-print and very difficult to find even used. Regarding your English, for someone with a native tongue from a distant language family it is perfectly fine. I can only wish my Japanese and Hindi will one day be as good as your English. As with any language, the best and probably only way to improve your proficiency at an advanced level is through much reading. Edited by Juаn on 29 April 2013 at 12:17am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5172 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 14 of 36 29 April 2013 at 9:34pm | IP Logged |
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For French (and a few others, maybe?) you could try Hugo's Advanced French. I found it to be more advanced than Living Language Ultimate French Advanced.
For Norwegian there are mainly monolingual textbooks: På vein, Stein på stein. They are rich with texts and audio, and Norwegian is a language at which you can read basic reading fluency rather fast. I don't think I'd use a monolingual textbook for Chinese, considering my current level and the fact I've finished several beginner's textbooks. Routledge has a series of textbooks that focus on grammar and less on texts, with no dialogues. We have Basic Chinese: a grammar and workbook and Intermediate Chinese: a grammar and workbook. So, I think the intermediate one is pretty much useful for you to deal with more advanced grammar topics in a systematic way but still not going too much "grammatical". I think they exist for German, Polish and several other languages. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Paco Senior Member Hong Kong Joined 4283 days ago 145 posts - 251 votes Speaks: Cantonese* | Message 15 of 36 30 April 2013 at 9:19am | IP Logged |
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Minna no Nihongo is not bad. Many language classes in Japan employ this method, and it
is among the most popular series in Chinese-speaking East Asia, especially in Taiwan. Many say it is quite good as an introduction. I should have made myself clearer about the Japanese series I mentioned. I hope I am not going to be hope dasher, but I have only acquired them recently and started a few lessons, and I am afraid it mainly serves Chinese-speaking learners. You may have a look at it before I explain further. The series have 8 course books divided into 2 sub-series of 4, with 6 supplementary books which contain translations and answers. ie=UTF8&psc=1">4th ie=UTF8&psc=1">6th ie=UTF8&psc=1">8th ie=UTF8&psc=1">Translation and Answers of 7th and 8th Its virtue is its comprehensiveness and substantive input. In the first 4 books, you are given passages and dialogues, which are followed by explanation of grammar and vocabulary in Chinese, which are then followed by exercises or further readings. The 4 advanced coursebooks provide you with pure Japanese texts; as you progress they become more literary. In the first 3 books they are followed by explanations in both Japanese and Chinese, but the last book does not contain Chinese at all. All the readings are recorded, which makes up tens of hours of recordings purely in the target language. The 6 supplementary books are marketed as supplements, but as they contain answers of exercises, I think they are in fact essential companions. Translations of readings in Chinese are also provided in the 6 books. I have heard some passing N1 with the 4th. Others say the 4th only bring you to N2. The first 4 are meant to be used by Japanese majors in the first two years. The other 4 are for people who would like to enhance their proficiency and have access to literature, and are supposed to be used during the last 2 years. Now it comes to disadvantages. I have heard the pace might be too fast for some, and the input might be too substantive that some cannot handle. Besides, it is not as practical as courses like Minna no Nihongo. Its orientation is clear: To produce specialists to study Genji and the likes. The fact that they still give brief Chinese explanations in the 5th to 7th, and that Chinese translations are always available in supplementary books, might indicate that there is a chance the average learner would need them. Moreover, as I browse through the advanced books, the texts, as they are literary and will only become more so, are already full of Kanji. I do not think it will serve you well, as they might be all too early for Western learners. Chinese-speaking learners have the privilege when reading older texts. As they usually employ more Kanji, albeit the difficulty due to literariness, the texts are quite transparent. So using texts of higher or lower registers, contemporary or older, do not make great differences. I think you will learn better with the traditional Westerner approach, namely to progress from modern readers first. By the way, are you actually an advanced Japanese learner? Then all I did would have been teaching my grandmother to suck eggs... excuse me if it is the case. I wish I will eventually be able to read great books with ease like an educated native speaker in at least English, German, Spanish, French, Italian, Latin, Greek and Russian - Dream Tour in Western Civilisation! (Certainly I would like to do the same for Classical Chinese and Japanese, as well as Sanskrit whose literature and thoughts have had immense influence in Ancient China.) Edited by Paco on 30 April 2013 at 9:42am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Paco Senior Member Hong Kong Joined 4283 days ago 145 posts - 251 votes Speaks: Cantonese* | Message 16 of 36 30 April 2013 at 9:35am | IP Logged |
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Thank you Expugnator. I will be sure to have a look.
By the way, does anyone know of good, progressive series of advanced textbooks for other languages? I think this thread might serve as good reference for other members and me about the subject. Please do recommend some for: Spanish Italian Portuguese Modern Greek Russian Catalan Romanian etc. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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