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"Finishing" a language | ||
Tags: Advanced Level | Time to learn | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| MixedUpCody Senior Member United States Joined 5254 days ago 144 posts - 280 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Mandarin | Message 25 of 44 30 January 2014 at 3:28am | IP Logged | ||
I agree with you in the sense that "fluent" is normally used, meaning something like "speaks the language well" (or whatever else people mean by it, I'm not trying to start a debate). But I get the impression that "fluent" in this context means "flowing, rhythmic speech", because it is listed separately from grammar. So with that in mind, I think it is possible to have "fluent" speech that isn't "grammatical", which I think is better than vice versa. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| DaraghM Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 6149 days ago 1947 posts - 2923 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Russian, Hungarian | Message 26 of 44 30 January 2014 at 9:38am | IP Logged | ||
As emk already highlights, the CEFR time scales are for guided hours. When I was studying in Cervantes at the B2 level, I had 3 hours of classes a week, but at least an additional eight hours of homework was also given per week. This generally consisted of a ten A4 page free composition and a lot of grammar exercises. At the higher levels, I don’t think they allow as many classes per week as at the lower levels, so sixty hours of instruction would spread over twenty weeks. This means for the 180 hours of guided C1 instruction after B2, it takes about sixty weeks. Edited by DaraghM on 30 January 2014 at 9:45am 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5428 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 27 of 44 30 January 2014 at 1:22pm | IP Logged | ||
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The figures suggested by DaraghM pretty much concur with my estimates. The problem isn't really the actual
number of hours; it's the rate or speed of study. In other words, how much time does it take to get from A to B? It depends on how fast you are travelling. For example, are you writing at least the equivalent of a page a day and reviewing it with a tutor? It sounds like quite a lot, but you have to work at writing because that is what will be required of you and it is one of the hardest parts of the exam. Similarly, you can lay on the couch and watch an hour of TL television every day, but you should also be spending at least 20 minutes shadowing good quality recordings. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Duke100782 Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Philippines https://talktagalog.Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4486 days ago 172 posts - 240 votes Speaks: English*, Tagalog* Studies: Spanish, Mandarin | Message 28 of 44 22 February 2014 at 10:14pm | IP Logged | ||
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There are a number of languages on my list, but I know I must focus on Mandarin Chinese as it's essential for
progress in my life and work here in China. I know it will take lots of time to reach near-native fluency. But when will I be "finished" learning so I can start learning another language? 1. When I can sit through a symposium and understand around 90% of what was said 2. When I can approach a stranger at a bar and have a conversation with her 3. When I can go to work meetings without an interpreter and handle the discussions 4. When I can turn on the TV and understand the news 5. When I can pick up a newspaper and understand most of what I read Then I can start learning the regional dialect here (Chongqinghua), Spanish, Bisaya, Fookien, and the other languages on my list. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6595 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 29 of 44 23 February 2014 at 8:13am | IP Logged | ||
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Up to you. I'd say when you can deal with the bulk of your job effortlessly (language-wise) and when the hardest parts take effort but are doable. If you feel like you're missing out a lot, start learning the regional dialect now or as soon as you can learn it through Mandarin.
3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Hungringo Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 3986 days ago 168 posts - 329 votes Speaks: Hungarian*, English, Spanish Studies: French | Message 30 of 44 23 February 2014 at 10:58am | IP Logged | ||
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I am sure that the Common European Framework is a bit misleading. I have passed easily C1 exams in English and Spanish (the Spanish written exam with 98 per cent, basically with a single spelling mistake) yet I don't think I could do all that is listed in the description of C1.
I consider a language "finished" when I understand almost everything in normal social situations, can watch a movie, can read a novel and broadsheet and tabloid newspapers alike, and can converse without difficulty about topics I am interested in. When you've reached this "finished" level you'll still have black spots, lacking the vocabulary of topics you are not interested in. For instance when my Spanish speaking friends talk about football I haven't got a clue what they are talking about, but it would be the same if they used my native language, because I couldn't care less about football. Edited by Hungringo on 23 February 2014 at 6:40pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| yantai_scot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4800 days ago 157 posts - 214 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German | Message 31 of 44 23 February 2014 at 5:05pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'd align myself with Hungringo's position, if they
don't mind. I realise the shortcomings of the assigned levels. Particularly as the level climbs. This was certainly the case with the old format. Hsk for Mandarin, even more so now having gone from 11 to 6. I'm still in awe of those foreigners who are interviewed for tv news abroad and can answer intelligibly. It might not be at the standard of a philosophical debate but I'll so happy to get there. That's not to say I'm complacent. Yes, my main aim is intermediate social standard. That's when I'll let myself 'play' with another. But I also realise how limited, in comparison to a native, my language will be. I've. But by having a more realistic expectation of what I'll I'm trying to do is helping me to keep learning. After my first German class, I said to myself that learning it will be a long, slow lifetime plod. That's a major shift of attitude for me. It's a lifestyle change that I expect to have to plug away at for the rest of my life and therein there will be no 'finishing point'. Much like keeping fit. I do now intend to sit exams related to the cfer levels but that will be more to improve my cv than thinking I'm a well rounded linguist just a couple of exams to pass before I can claim 'fluency'. Edited by yantai_scot on 23 February 2014 at 5:07pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Sterogyl Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4365 days ago 152 posts - 263 votes Studies: German*, French, EnglishC2 Studies: Japanese, Norwegian | Message 32 of 44 25 February 2014 at 7:48am | IP Logged | ||
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I notice that many language learners here dwell on particular "levels" such as C1 C2 etc. But it only provides a rough guide of how well one speaks a foreign (!) language. It's a framework. And C2 doesn't mean you are a second Flaubert or you can speak like an eloquent politician. You're not a perfect speaker then. But attaining a particular level can be very difficult and time-consuming, depending on the language. The closer a language to one's own, the easier it becomes. Attaining a C1 level in Japanese for example, as a native speaker of English or German, can take many, many years and lots of effort. Attaining a C1 level in Spanish or Dutch is much easier.
The guide is also misleading because it presupposes that you need a kind of "course" or language classes with teacher contact. I don't think this is necessary. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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