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Plateau at B2/C1, immersion doesn’t work | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| AlexTG Diglot Senior Member Australia Joined 4639 days ago 178 posts - 354 votes  Speaks: English*, French Studies: Latin, German, Spanish, Japanese | Message 9 of 18 18 May 2015 at 11:26am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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It sucks to say but mostly I think you've got to just keep doing what you've been doing.
However one small thing that could help your comprehension of TV is studying accents. Some people have a great ear for accents and seem to notice naturally the variations that natives are throwing at them. But some of us need a bit of formal help, we need to be told exactly what crazy sound-changes natives make before we can spot when they're doing it. For English, the book "How to do Accents", by Edda Sharpe and Jan Haydn Rowles, is great. It's written for actors, so it presents concepts nice and simple. It describes the varied ways the sounds of English are pronounced by different native speakers. I also suggest reading a book on English pronunciation for Polish speakers since that will focus on specific issues that would be likely to trip you up. (yes these books are intended to improve your accent, but in fact they're very useful for comprehension as well) Edited by AlexTG on 18 May 2015 at 11:31am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5010 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 10 of 18 18 May 2015 at 12:28pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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I agree with lots of advice given even though I would add a bit more optimism.
Comprehension of tv is not neglected on this forum, quite the opposite. And it is a great step towards understanding normal natives in situ. French tv series were the main part of my progress towards C2 and towards not having trouble communicating with natives. What I would do, were I at your place: -choose something easier at first. Most crime series or sci-fi, for exemple, tend to be easier to understand than most sitcoms or dramas. Take an easier show, get through a few seasons and than go to another. Dive into it, don't switch too often between various kinds of content at the beginning. -After going through one show, dive into another and another, diversify the kinds of input you are getting. -perhaps start with american shows, before diving into the British ones. I think they are easier for a western slavic native. Friends worked for quite a lot of learners, from what I heard. I agree that getting transcripts might really help but, on the other hand, they might as well keep you where you are. You can already understand subtitles perfectly, it is time to take the leap of faith., in my opinion. About reading. What are you reading? Are you leaving your comfort zone often enough? Are you reading books with contemporary English, as it is spoken, as well? Such books can prepare you nicely for both tv and normal natives. To improve your speaking: -keep working on your grammar and vocabulary. While vocabulary can be acquired just from input, you can as well use tools aimed at learners, if you prefer so. English is a language with tons of options. -Grammar is something many learners underestimate. These days, it is popular to say "I cannot speak fluently because I've been learning too much grammar instead of just speaking". That is simply wrong. Most people with this excuse actually haven't learnt the grammar. They get stuck often, use incorrect constructions and so on. Again, there are tons of resources to help you. -As was said, self-talk is a great exercise. If you can get a tutor or a language exchange, it could help too. Think in the language -Most people underestimate the fact that you need to think in the language in order to speak it. Translating in your head won't do, getting stuck often is a problem and so on. -To get thinking in the language, find ways to use English. Situations that make translations too slow and inefficient. That leads to my main point: I learnt English (to CAE level, with highest (C2) grade in writing) thanks to an online game. A text based RPG. I wanted to play with Americans so I had to learn. Text based environment, dialogues and roleplaying with others, exploring descriptions for quests, that got me where I am now. (heh, I've forgotten a bit already, some mistakes I am making these days are new). Neither a teacher who shouted at me four times a week nor a textbook taught me. A game did (perhaps 90% game, 7% tv series and books, 3% a grammar book). Perhaps you might want to incorporate something like that into your routine as well. Get immersed, get thinking in English. wotmud.org is my favourite game but there are many more of this kind. 7 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| pab Diglot Newbie Poland Joined 4197 days ago 8 posts - 11 votes Speaks: Polish*, English Studies: French | Message 11 of 18 21 May 2015 at 12:38am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Firstly, thank you very much for taking your time and replying to me. Really appreciate it! Gave me a lot of food for thought and for the last few days I’ve been pondering over your advice to avoid being an impulsive replier
Sure it is but comparing to other shows I find it relatively easy. As I wrote earlier – I have no problem to translate it from the English subs, yet just listening, there are many dialogues which I simply can’t grasp and it’s not necessarily the ones with puns and subtexts. Have big problems with the way Jay speaks due to an accent also struggle sometimes with Claire and Alex due to pace, I’d guess.
Thank you, Speakeasy for this. I’m a bit afraid you overestimate me though, I often struggle not only with colloquial lingo full of inside jokes but also everyday fast-paced dialogues. Example: I tried to tackle the show Inside No. 9 (recommend the first episode wholeheartedly). Can be watched on YT here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP6JM_8V37s or full screen in other places: https://goo.gl/Ey8LPu . I struggle big time to understand the lady whenever she speaks… 3:40 also is very hard. It’s very discouraging though when you find yourself not able to fully enjoy the language you’ve been learning for many years and am been immersed in every single day – nolens volens as it surrounds me everywhere. How am I supposed to be proficient in French or any other language in the future one day if I can’t do the trick with modern lingua franca? :(
Exactly, I used to go too heavy on the reading. That’s one one day I realized I can ready quickly pretty much everything yet still get nervous when I need to have a chat with someone from an English speaking country and not come across as a lacking in wit bore :( That’s why I shifted my focus onto podcasts, radio and TV. And while I understand 50-75%, it’s still not enough to feel comfortable.
How shall I watch those series? With English subs/sans/studying subs before/after? Challenge accepted. Will update in a few months! :)
Done a couple of Coursera courses. To be honest video lectures are quite easy to understand to me. They speak slowly and very clearly usually. It’s a good shout though, thanks!
Well, regarding watching shows it depends on the show. I try to avoid watching with Polish subs so mostly it’s either no subs at all or English ones. Re-watching without subs and studying them before sounds very good. Will definitely incorporate this. Read about sub2srs, even tried it for a while but I generally got discouraged by anki so I stopped. Will put some more challenging show into it and see how it works. Thanks for reminding! I have a problem with italki. Did a few sessions and generally was told I was doing very well “you could be my neighbour” even though I feel I wasn’t that great. I’m not sure how to use italki properly to be honest. Shall I ask them to correct me every single time? I think my biggest problem is that I learned to by-pass or skirt around something I want to say but don’t know how. It results in expressing it what I wanted to say in a less sophisticated/advanced way than I intended to. I’m ready to use italki often but need to know how to make the most of these sessions.
Very good point. Thing is I’m poor with accents. I don’t know why, maybe because I’m not musical at all and don’t like music very much my ears aren’t very sensitive? I mean I hear and recognize the accents, yet can’t mimic them very well though. Will definitely take a look at Sharpe’s book! Thank you!
I read different stuff: contemporary noves, biographies, crimes. What kind of resources would you advise to improve grammar? I need to confess I’m one of those (partly thanks to HTLAL though:)) who neglected grammar in the last few years. It’s true that American English is much easier to understand to me. Will look for a crime show (not a van of sci-fi) and watch a few seasons sans subtitles. Watching British comedies/dramas without subs is such a painful experience :( My favourite show ever “The thick of it” (10/10 really recommend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXHhLIOigjE ) is full of subtexts, accents, puns etc. Will give a try to some American series now and then try Brtish again. Thank you for all the advice one more time! You are beautiful folks :) Edited by pab on 21 May 2015 at 1:23am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 12 of 18 21 May 2015 at 3:52am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Accent is not about musicality or perfect pitch; it is about knowing how sounds are produced mechanically and being able to reproduce them in your mouth. It is about learning how tonality works in sentences as well (when to stress, when not to stress, when to raise or lower pitch). Because people don't have the same reference pitch (just think of people with bass voices, alt voices etc), the tones that indicate meaning are not absolute, but they are relative and dependent on contour, and thus you can be entirely tone-deaf and able to replicate tones correctly. I don't have a particularly musical ear either (though I have studied music to some extent) and I definitely don't have perfect pitch, but I can recognise tones when I hear them because it's about contour. If you have troubles with accents and sounds, check how particular sounds are made for speakers of a certain language and replicate speech therapy exercises in order to do just that. For example, the typical "ch" sound of German is pronounced at the back of your throat, exactly where you produce your "k" (or sometimes even further back; but that's a matter of lowering your tongue a little). Try to produce a k while blowing air through and you've got it. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Improbably Diglot Newbie Norway Joined 4937 days ago 34 posts - 87 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English | Message 13 of 18 21 May 2015 at 12:42pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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I recommend reading the Wikipedia bit on deliberate practice: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practice_%28learning_method%29# Deliberate_practice
Simply put, just doing something a lot is not enough to break the typical plateau. For that you need deliberate practice. Suggestion for listening: When you come across something you don't understand in e.g. a movie, stop, go back, listen to it again and again, trying to write down what you hear (don't refer to subtitles). If you can't make out words, try to write phonetically exactly what you hear. Only after you've done this for a while (maybe half a dozen times, to suggest an arbitrary number), and feel no progress anymore, do you refer to the subtitles to see what you got wrong. Then you listen to it again a few times, and try to pick out the words as they were written in the subtitles. Try to be aware of differences between how it's written and how it's pronounced, like how syllables may be swallowed, words abbreviated. Don't be discouraged if you can't seem to make out the words even after this exercise. Just be satisfied that you put in the effort, and move on to the next difficult bit. Over time, this kind of intensive practice can do wonders for your listening comprehension. Also, it's a good idea to keep a log over how you do, so that you can go back later and listen again to see how you've improved. 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 14 of 18 21 May 2015 at 2:50pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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Some MOOC's are more challenging than others. See if you can find a course from a British university and/or on a subject outside your comfort zone.
You can also look up various words on forvo.com, especially those you know only from reading. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4534 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 15 of 18 21 May 2015 at 3:30pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
I don't use subtitles (either L1 or L2) as I find them distracting. I find it more effective to just listen and understand as much as I can. I rely on reading to expand my vocabulary etc. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| shk00design Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4445 days ago 747 posts - 1123 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French | Message 16 of 18 21 May 2015 at 8:43pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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A lot of what you learn in a language programme is the "generic" version of a language. A language like
English has different variations including the UK, US and Australia each with their accent and local customs. Once we have a guest from out of town who studied in Australia. He was invited to see the musical "Jersey Boys". He had no trouble picking up the words & phrases but had trouble understanding the American jokes. When watching TV drama series, you can understand certain shows easily but not others. A show from England like "Coronation Street" or "Heartbeat" where you have dialogue in the Yorkshire accent, picking up the conversation can be tricky. Some older shows from England like "Are You Being Served" and "Mind Your Language" about an English teacher teaching immigrants are easy to understand. The humour in "Mind Your Language" is especially easy to pick up because you have people from different places (India, Pakistan, Italy, Spain, France, China, Japan, etc.) who try to speak English with all sorts of foreign accents. I watch a lot of Chinese drama series from Singapore. I still have trouble picking up everything when watching a show from Beijing. Besides knowing enough Chinese words & phrases, you need to know enough about the local culture and how certain phrases are applied. In Singapore, the people tend to speak Mandarin 95% of the time with English loan words in between including curry which is a common Indian food but not found in Chinese cuisine. Singapore has a few laws that foreigners will find odd including no chewing gum, paying extra if you don't finish your plate of food in a restaurant and caning (whipping) people who committed certain crimes on top of their prison sentences. You know enough about the place where a language is spoken and the local customs, you will be able to pick up the dialogue easily. TV shows with performances such as "American Idol" or "America's Got Talent" tend to be easier to understand because the performances takes up half the show. These tend to have a standard format such as the contestants introducing themselves and what they are going to perform. And then a few words from the judges and the final vote "Yes" or "No" follow by the viewers' responses. I have little trouble understanding a similar show from China: 中国达人秀 (China Got Talent) or 星光大道 which is a singing contest. You can easily find TV documentaries online. I find these easier to understand than drama series. Depending on the topic of discussion, if you know the topic well enough, picking up new words & phrases is much easier since it is the matter of translating terms you don't know to something you know in your native language. Recently I was watching a Chinese documentary on human migration in prehistoric times. It is a well-known fact people moved out of Africa over 10,000 years ago to other parts of the world. This include people from Madagascar moving across the Indian ocean to islands in the Pacific including Australia. The Chinese translations of "Madagascar" and "Neanderthal" man don't sound foreign because I studied history in school and know the subject very well. Edited by shk00design on 25 May 2015 at 2:21am 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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