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German study plan to go from A1 to C1 | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
 Betablinx Pro Member United Kingdom Joined 3448 days ago 10 posts - 11 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German Personal Language Map | Message 1 of 20 20 June 2015 at 6:05pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Hello, I have asked some questions in the "Language Programs, Books & Tapes" forum
recently and have received some great advice there. I would now like to ask some further questions here consolidating on what I've learned so far, as well as present my current study plan for learning German. Any constructive criticism of the plan or ways to improve it would be greatly appreciated. I would also like to mention that I did consider studying French instead of German, in order to gain access to a greater selection of Assimil's courses, that use a French base, however, after getting some feedback I think it's not a good enough reason, as German is the language I'm most interested in learning as my first foreign language. 1. Pimsleur is the course I'm planning to start with because my research from these forums is that it's a good introduction to the language, as well as being useful for pronouncing words correctly in the native language with a decent accent. I have a couple questions regarding Pimsleur though. I have seen that there is a German Plus Pimsleur course as well as a new German IV comprehensive course. After looking at reviews on Amazon for both courses; German Plus tended to get bad reviews whereas German IV received mainly positive reviews. Therefore I guess it makes sense to skip German plus and just use German: I, II, III and IV? 2. Michel Thomas I plan to use in combination with Pimsleur. After tracking back in old threads from these forums I have seen people say that it's a good idea to study one lesson with Pimsleur, then study one with Michel Thomas the next day and repeat, instead of studying Pimsleur in its entirety first, then Thomas afterwards. Therefore is studying them both simultaneously the best way to get the most out of these courses? 3. Assimil - When I first registered on these forums I must admit that I had never heard of Assimil before, however, after a lot of reading over the last few days it definitely seems to be the go to program for making the early jump from beginner to intermediate. I do have a question regarding Assimil German though, from looking back at old threads I have gathered that there has been several generations of the Assimil course. I would like to know whether it's worth buying their older generations or can I get away with just buying their 2014 edition of Assimil German for Beginners and False Beginners? It's annoying that they don't have German from an English base for their "Perfection" series but hopefully they might do this in the future. 4. FSI German - From what I can gather it's suppose to be boring and tedious at times but worth going through it. The fact that it's free is amazing too. I am also interested in knowing at what level someone would be at after completing the aforementioned courses? Would I be at around B1 at this stage in my plan? According to the CEFR ratings I mean. 5. Linguaphone I have been impressed at how comprehensive their course looks from samples I have seen. I would like to know whether their beginner to advanced programme would be a waste of time (and money) after going through the courses previously mentioned i.e. Pimsleur, Thomas, Assimil etc? If that is the case, would it be the same for their Advanced to Expert course? Or would this be a good substitute for the lack of a German Assimil course with an English base at this level i.e. intermediate to advanced level? My concern here is that Linguaphone's Beginner to Advanced course may include things that I have not learned from the courses I have gone through, therefore their Advanced to Expert course would be too difficult. Still though I am very tempted to buy their refurbished products for beginner to advanced and advanced to expert if I feel after completing stages 1-4 of my plan that I need more foundation work. 6. Deutsche Welle - I was linked to this site from another thread and it looks very good. I also like how they have divided materials from A1 up to C level. I was recommended this as a first introduction to Native materials and it seems like a very good suggestion. 7.1 Easy readers - I have seen this term used on different language threads on this forum and I am ignorant about what this term is or means. Is "Easy readers" part of a designed course for native materials? Or by easy readers is someone just referring to any native materials on the market that are easy to read? For example books aimed at native children and short stories etc..? 7.2 Yabla - This seems like a decent resource to get bulk native materials in the target language, however, I wonder if it might feel like being ripped off as you could get such materials for free e.g. youtube, radio, tv-shows, films etc..? Still though I might use it for the convenience. 7.3 Glossika - I was recommended this in another thread but I find their site difficult to navigate around and confusing to understand. If someone could give me the gist of what I'll be getting from using their products it would be appreciated. 8. Native materials in general - I was thinking for this: youtube, radio, magazines, news sites, tv-shows, films like mentioned above. I also saw someone in an older thread saying that they used their Kindle to read German books with an English- German dictionary, this seemed like a great idea as well as being able to increase ones own vocabulary at the same time, I think also coupled with using the online tool Forvo, in order to learn how to pronounce the new words you learn correctly makes sense too. I guess at this stage finding a language pal whom is trying to learn English would make sense, perhaps this could be done much earlier in the learning process, however, I imagine it would frustrating doing this too early in the process, further it being a waste of time for both parties. That is roughly my plan for trying to get from A1 to B2 or perhaps C1. I'm interested in knowing from other forums users whether this plan is at all realistic in terms of my goals (A1 to C1), if not please correct me as I want to do it right. I have no time goals set but I would be interested in knowing how long people think it would take to get to C1 from beginner with around 2 hours study per day (average)? Thanks if you take time to read and/or reply. P.S. One product I was thinking about incorporating into my plan was Fluenz German levels 1 to 5 course. It looks like a fun interactive programme but I'm not sure whether it's worth it. Edited: to change the word Collection to Perfection in Assimil part. Edited by Betablinx on 20 June 2015 at 7:45pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Elexi Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5566 days ago 938 posts - 1840 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 2 of 20 20 June 2015 at 7:15pm | IP Logged | |||||
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With regard to Assimil, you say 'It's annoying that they don't have German from an
English base for their "Collection" series but hopefully they might do this in the future.' That is the 2014 edition - this one - its excellent: http://www.amazon.co.uk/German- Super-Pack-Maria-Roemer/dp/2700580494/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid =1434820239&sr=8- 1&keywords=assimil+german 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Betablinx Pro Member United Kingdom Joined 3448 days ago 10 posts - 11 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German Personal Language Map | Message 3 of 20 20 June 2015 at 7:43pm | IP Logged | |||||
Ah sorry I meant "Perfection" series, my fault. I would like the equivalent of this French based one for English speakers: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Assimil-Methode-Perfectionnement-all emand-Lehrbuch- Eismann/dp/2700504356/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1434822248&sr= 8- 12&keywords=assimil+german Edited my original post to say Perfection now. Edited by Betablinx on 20 June 2015 at 7:48pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| vell Newbie United States Joined 3794 days ago 17 posts - 44 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Russian | Message 4 of 20 20 June 2015 at 8:05pm | IP Logged | |||||
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You can't really go wrong with any of these resources, but you're planning for a
marathon before you even started running. Getting to C1 isn't easy and will take hundreds of hours of studying. Even at 2 hours a day, if you can consistently devote that much time, you're looking at a full year before you reach that level. I would recommend buying an Assimil book (the 2014 one is fine, I think) and borrowing some German materials from a library and studying them for a few weeks to make sure you want to do this. If you do like it, move on to any of these other materials as you see fit. Assimil will probably take you to around B1, but it depends on what you put into it. Assimil and a random German grammar book can keep you busy for months, so you'll have time to think about other materials. If you take this approach, you'll also have a better sense of what you need and what sort of materials you'll want to use. 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5263 days ago 2241 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 5 of 20 20 June 2015 at 9:54pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Seconding vell's advice, my general language-learning advice for beginners is not to get overwhelmed by materials. The problem with a popular language like German is that there are so many good materials available. The paradox of choice and doing more courses doesn't mean you will learn a language faster or better.
My advice is to in the beginning use a couple of courses, preferably complimentary. Assimil/FSI and Pimsleur are a classic complimentary combination. I've looked into the free online materials from Deutsche Welle. If I ever decide to learn German, I would definitely try to use them as a main part of my study along with Pimsleur and native materials as early as possible. See my post on the multi-track approach and leosmith's post on listening from the beginning. If you have computer skills, another good way to pursue a multi-track approach is with subs2srs. Have a look at emk's Spanish: a little subs2srs experiment. Emk is an experienced language learner but I believe the use of subs2srs (with any language that has media available in order to employ subs2srs) and combined with a good grammar and a good, thorough course will be highly effective. The downside of subs2srs is that it does require some computer skills and isn't "out of the box ready". Don't expect overnight miracles. Don't think you've arrived when you finish a course. Don't think that just because you have a ton of learning materials available that you have to use them all. Don't think that any course will lead you to proficiency. Do be consistent and persistent in your studies. I can't emphasize this enough. Show up.
Edited by iguanamon on 20 June 2015 at 10:57pm 9 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 6 of 20 20 June 2015 at 10:30pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Very true. It's a bit like planning your retirement when you start your first job.
Also, the level a publisher lists is just an approximate estimate. It's more of a warning to newbies that this material will be too hard for them than a guarantee of reaching a specific level. (BTW as far as I remember, the only C1-ish materials at Deutsche Welle are on business German. On the other hand, I LOVED Deutsch? Warum nicht! and I can't recommend it enough. Definitely give it a try, even if you already have other materials for A1-B1!) I think the member you're talking about is patrickwilken. He still reads loads of German on his kindle :) Definitely check out more of his awesome posts! Edited by Serpent on 20 June 2015 at 10:33pm 7 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Elexi Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5566 days ago 938 posts - 1840 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 7 of 20 20 June 2015 at 11:47pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I would also get a general German grammar workbook like the Practice Makes Perfect
series or Schaum's Outline and use it with every topic you cover. In German, one can never get enough grammar practice... 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Speakeasy Senior Member Canada Joined 4053 days ago 507 posts - 1098 votes Studies: German | Message 8 of 20 21 June 2015 at 2:37am | IP Logged | |||||
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Choice of Materials
You've hit the jackpot! However, as others have commented above, you might be spreading yourself a little too thin. Learning French so as to Learn German With Assiml? I concur with the advice above and as previously mentioned under the Your Favorite Language Program discussion thread. Frankly, I would be quite surprised if one could achieve a level of C1 through self-study alone, particularly within a time-period as short as one year. Achieving this level would take quite a bit of exposure to native materials. Given the vast resources for studying German from an English-base, there is simply no requirement to learn French as a primary step and doing so would only distract you from your stated objective. If you want to learn French for some other reason, by all means, develop a study programme and go for it! Developing Good Pronunciation I have only rarely come across self-study language materials for which non-native-speakers have been chosen to provide the audio recordings. So, whether you use Pimsleur or any other method, you will need only an attentive ear and a lot of patience and persevernce. Later, working with a tutor will be of considerable benefit. There are Intermediate Level materials to assist students correct their German pronunication; however, generally speaking, the publishers recommend that users be already at the B1 level or higher. Of all the popular self-study methods available, there is only one product that does NOT use native-speakers: the (Saint) Michel Thomas Method. Whatever the purported strengths of the MT method, I defy anyone to make even the slightest suggestion that either Michel or his bumbling students can serve as adequate models for the pronunciation of German ... or any other language with which Michel was associated. To continue, the primary benefits of the Pimsleur method are not related to the development of good pronunciation; rather, they have to do with retention of the material and with developing a "feel for the language" through practice and inference.. Glossika Mass Sentences Yes, the Glossika website is rather slow, glitchy, and clunky. In addition, Glossika does not provide a very good description of their materials. First, you should understand that the Mass Sentences are just that: sentences, lots of them. However, in terms of pure numbers of sentences, the Glossika files probably contain a little less material than, say, Assimil, and certainly nowhere near as many sentences as FSI Basic German. There are no dialogues in the Glossika files. The sentences themselves are, for all practical purposes, not related to one another. There is no immediately discernable pattern to them in terms of grammatical structure or theme. It is assumed that the user is already familiar with most of the vocabulary and with the grammatical structure. The whole idea is to practice the sentences "massively" with a view to increasing one's fluency. Based on my experience with their German Mass Sentence materials, here's what you can expect for about 100 $US: A. Text Files Three PDF files, one for each Level, containing a total of 3,000 Mass Sentences expressed in the Target Language, along with a translation in the Learner's Language, and an IPA pronunciation guide for each individual sentence. There is no other support provided (such as notes on grammar, explanations of colloquial usage, etcetera). B. GMS Audio Files The recorded 3,000 Mass Sentences are separated into 60 groups (20 groups per level), each containg 50 sentences. The 50 sentences within a group are presented sequentially in three familiarization phases as follows: 1 English_pause_German_pause_German_pause, for a duration of about 12 minutes 2 English_pause_German, for a duration of about 7 minutes 3 German_pause, for a duration of about 4 minutes The order of the materials in the above audio recordings follows the text in the separate PDF files. C. GSR Sentences The 3,000 Mass Sentences are sequenced randomly in small, separate sound tracks, for a duration that ranges from about 12 minutes to about 30 minutes. There are 104 random GSR groups supporting the 20 GMS groups in each of the three levels. These separate sets of recordings are composed of the previously-presented Mass Sentences. Senteces are included in a cumulative fashion and then discarded in a "rolling forward" fashion, thereby providing "massive", separate, random, repetition of the 3,000 Mass Sentences. D. Hours of Audio Recordings I have not performed an exhaustive analysis of the number of hours of the Glossika German Mass Sentences. However, a quick count suggests that there are about 2 hours of sentences, exclusive of pauses. The total audio files exceed 50 hours of multiple répétitions of the sentences, which includes the English language prompts and the pauses. So, 2 hours of sentences, spread throughout 50 hours of practice files. E. Levels The 3,000 Mass Sentences are grouped into three levels as Fluency 1, Fluency 2, Fluency 3. The range is from A1 through to about B1. F. My Overall Appraisal I view the Glossika materials as representing a sincere effort to provide the student with supplementary practice materials. Are they "more" effective than, say, the FSI Basic courses or the Assimil dialogues, when the latter are pushed to the limit? In my opinion, no, they are NOT "more" effective; however, they DO represent very interesting supplementary materials for someone who needs a change of pace. Also, since it is a little difficult to anticipate the order in which the random sentences are presented in the GSR files, this helps keep one mentally alert. ASSUMING that a student actually put in the time to practice ALL of the Assimil dialogues to the point of exhaustion, along with ALL of the FSI German sentence-pattern drills to the point of a total mental breakdown, then there is no need to use the Glossika German Mass Sentence files. However, they DO provide both a welcome break and a change of pace in one's studies and they DO, indeed, assist in improving one's fluency. Achievable CEFR Levels I greatly appreciated all of the comments above. Working through most, or even all, of the materials above would take you to B1 without too much difficulty. Moving up to B2 is a bit of a challenge as it requires increased, fairly intensive, contact with native materials and, more importantly, with native speakers. It is indeed p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e to achieve a level of B2, or perhaps even C1, in a self-study programme, but doing so is not easy. Studying as a Pratical Matter Establishing a plan and getting down to work are different matters (I loved the "showing up" reference). Apart from the usual aspects of setting aside study-time, I thought that I might draw your attention to the following Discussion Thread where the matter of Working With Dialogues as Practice Material is tossed around. There are MULTIPLE approaches and MULTIPLE discussion threads throughout the HTLAL Forum that address this issue. I am bringing it up because you are going to be faced with this issue as soon as you begin your practical studies. Keep your hands up, your elbows in, your head down, fix your eyes on the centre of his body mass and remember, wherever his shoulders go, he's going too! Edited by Speakeasy on 21 June 2015 at 2:54am 6 persons have voted this message useful |
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