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Learning preterite forms in German | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| LanguagePhysics Newbie United States Joined 4144 days ago 34 posts - 43 votes Speaks: English* | Message 1 of 14 04 August 2015 at 4:54pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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If the aim is to achieve a reasonable level of spoken German, is it really worth spending large amounts of time learning preterite forms which often involve rather complex sound changes and are frequently irregular?
I have read that outside of Northern Germany, it is rare to hear the preterite used in everyday spoken language and the present perfect is used almost exclusively other than in a few basic verbs such as "sein". It seems outside of Northern Germany there is no real concept of the preterite existing in the spoken language and it is something that is reserved only for formal written language. In fact, it seems it could be argued that the only reason the preterite is in frequent use in Northern Germany is because of the influence of Low German upon the way High German is spoken, as Low German makes frequent use of the preterite which can be seen in the way Dutch makes frequent use of the preterite. That considered, it seems the argument could be made that High German as it was originally spoken before being the national language of Germany didn't really have a preterite form and the reason the German language does today is because it has been standardised based on the way people in Northern Germany speak, which has been influenced by Low German and its heavy use of the preterite. Obviously, if the aim is to speak and write fluent German, then of course you are going to have to eventually learn all the verb forms, but if the aim is simply to speak everyday spoken German to a proficient level, can the preterite forms be largely ignored in order to focus on other aspects of learning German? Edited by LanguagePhysics on 04 August 2015 at 4:55pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Via Diva Diglot Senior Member Russian Federation last.fm/user/viadivaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4232 days ago 1109 posts - 1427 votes  Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German, Italian, French, Swedish, Esperanto, Czech, Greek | Message 2 of 14 04 August 2015 at 5:13pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I obviously can't speak for the Germans, especially in the different regions, but I'd just recommend you to do
what you want to do. I learned some verbs passively, and when I used them in a conversation, I just happened to be taking to a speaker who enjoys using preterite. But I don't think it's even worth a fuss, since a lot of verbs are regular or “guessable“, and even if you form a verb wrong, you'll most probably get corrected. Just my thoughts on the matter, though. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| aokoye Diglot Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5539 days ago 235 posts - 453 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Dutch, Norwegian, Japanese | Message 3 of 14 04 August 2015 at 5:22pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Define "formal writing". I have friends who are native German speakers (and not from northern
Germany) who use preteritum in informal writing (instant messages, emails, etc) on a regular basis. I think it would make sense to learn it, but that's just me. 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| daegga Tetraglot Senior Member Austria lang-8.com/553301 Joined 4519 days ago 1076 posts - 1792 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, Norwegian Studies: Danish, French, Finnish, Icelandic | Message 4 of 14 04 August 2015 at 7:32pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Actively - no, you do not need to use the preterite in spoken German.
Passively - well, you want to understand it. But it's not that hard. Take the participle, get rid of the ge- and -en and ignore the vowel :) 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5007 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 5 of 14 05 August 2015 at 1:25am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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So, it is something like passé simple in French? Theoretically "useless" but bread and butter if you read in the language?
Thanks for the info! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4842 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 6 of 14 05 August 2015 at 2:00pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Pardon my French, but this is utter bullshit. You're correct insofar as the South German dialects (!!!) don't have preterite forms, so speakers from Southern Germany and Austria tend not to use it at all (with a few exceptions, such as "haben" and "sein"). However, in what is considered Standard German today, there absolutely exist preterite forms, also in the spoken language! It is much more usual to use some common verbs in the preterite than in the present perfect, e.g. "ich dachte", "ich lag", "ich stand" etc. Also, the preterite is the common tense for longer narrations, in spoken as in written German. If you tell a story, you will need the preterite, otherwise you'll sound very funny or completely off. I acknowledge that daegga has a different stance on this topic, as he is from Austria and Austrian German is influenced by the dialects, however as far as "German German" is concerned, the preterite isn't just something you'll find in books (which is the case with the French passé simple). I don't know where this misconception that the preterite is only used in written language comes from. I have argued so many times against it now, so I'll really have to stress it one more time: The preterite doesn't only exist in books! You need it in spoken German, as well! It's correct that the present perfect is more common in spoken German, but the preterite has some specific functions the present perfect does not have. You can't learn a language by simply ignoring an entire verb tense! Also, if you want to see what "High German before it became the national language" was like, you can read Luther's translation of the Bible. You'll find an abundance of preterite forms there, so your argument is completely off the chart. 11 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| chaotic_thought Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 3540 days ago 129 posts - 274 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Dutch, French | Message 7 of 14 08 August 2015 at 9:15am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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When speaking English I always find it interesting that we tend to say "I (already) ate" rather than "I've (already) eaten.", whereas in German we tend to say "Ich habe (schon) gegessen", rather than "Ich aß (schon)".
However, in both languages, both forms are essential. As an English speaker, I can say that just because you've never heard someone utter "I've eaten" before (with the meaning "I ate"), does not mean knowing such forms is not essential. It is. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| LanguagePhysics Newbie United States Joined 4144 days ago 34 posts - 43 votes Speaks: English* | Message 8 of 14 08 August 2015 at 3:15pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Many sources I have read claim that the preterite is rarely used in spoken language and informal writing outside of Northern Germany, leading me to assume that use of the preterite is largely a Northern German thing that has become the standard. For instance, on Wikipedia it states;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterite Just because what is known as Standard German now wasn't the national language of Germany at the time Martin Luther was writing doesn't mean that the formal written dialect of German wasn't influenced by Northern German usage. The fact that lots of preterite forms can be found in Martin Luther's translation of the bible doesn't really mean a lot in terms of how he and his contemporaries would actually have spoken German. It is reasonable to assume that his translation of the bible would have been written in a formal written dialect, which is where preterite forms in Standard German are most expected to be used. You state that Standard German uses the preterite, as if this proves that all Germans frequently use the preterite in their speech, yet it seems that throughout its history Standard German has been almost entirely a formal written language and it is only relatively recently that it has become a spoken language. It is stated on Wikipedia;
The bottom line is that most, if not all, High German dialects do not have any concept of the preterite natively. The use of the preterite in Standard German has obviously originated from somewhere else, probably from its use in Northern Germany as it was primarily learnt as a second language and therefore eventually regarded as more correct because Northern Germans paid more attention to the specific rules when learning it. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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