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 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5534 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes  Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 57 of 82 15 September 2012 at 1:47am | IP Logged | ||
Now that I think about it, the English-speaking world has reached an interesting accommodation between "standard" and vernacular dialects: 1. The grammar of "standard" English is virtually identical in all the major English- speaking countries. However, there are real differences in accent and vocabulary. 2. Every English-speaking country has (multiple!) vernacular dialects, which differ substantially in grammar. Some examples, mostly from the US: - American Vernacular English permits "ain't" and double-negation. - African-American Vernacular English has zero-copula forms and new verb aspects. - Scottish English exists on a language continuum with Lowland Scotts. - Brooklyn speakers use the plural form "yous". - Some southern US speakers use "y'all" as a plural. - A few southern speakers use "y'all" as a polite singular, and "all y'all" as plural. - Other southern varieties allow double modals like "might could". 3. A huge fraction of English speakers switch between (a) standard grammar with a "light" accent, and (b) vernacular grammar with a heavier accent. In general, (a) will be perceived as "educated" and "intelligent", and (b) will be perceived as "authentic"— even by speakers of other vernaculars. 4. Many of the more extreme vernaculars have been heavily regularized since the invention of television. The New England accents of my generation are much closer to "standard" than than those of my grandparents' generation. 5. A huge variety of English vernaculars have a substantial media presence. So far, I think this is all pretty standard for a major world language, except possibly point (1): "standard" English grammar is more consistent than that of some other widespread languages. As for Quebec, how would you describe the current accommodation between "standard" French, Quebec French and English? What role does media play in Quebec? If you could influence one thing, what would it be? 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| lecavaleur Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4779 days ago 146 posts - 295 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish | Message 58 of 82 15 September 2012 at 2:17am | IP Logged | ||
Quebec is one of the most mediatized societies on Earth, and for such a small nation it has a very vibrant media, star-system and a highly loyal domestic audience. I have rarely seen such a thing elsewhere except maybe the States. People here love their TV. The major networks are : Radio-Canada TVA V-télé (formerly TQS) Télé-Québec TV5 (Québec-Canada) TVA is the most popular network although somewhat on the "trashy" side, but not near as much as V-télé which is the epitome of télé-poubelle in Québec. Nevertheless it has a few popular shows. Radio-Canada and Télé-Québec are public broadcasters and are seen as more "intelligent" (sort of like PBS, but with a wider audience). TV5 is the local incarnation of the international network all Francophones in the world are familiar with; however, due to federal Canadian content regulations, the Quebec version of TV5 has much more local programming. It is probably the least popular network and attracts an audience which sees itself as more cultivated. It is also more popular among immigrants from other French-speaking countries. The private broadcasters are more likely to use a much more vernacular QF with a much more pronounced Quebec accent, though some form of the Quebec accent is used on every one of the networks (even TV5, when the programming is local). The accent is how you know a show is from Quebec, and Québécois viewers are not likely to enjoy programming that is perceived as too "French". I often joke that Quebeckers hate the French more than the Americans do. The major daily newspapaers are : - LaPresse (and its many local affiliates) - A major daily, centrist and federalist editorial line - Le Devoir (Quebec's only independant, large-circulation daily newspaper) - Left- leaning and nationalist/sovereignist. Le journal de Montréal (and it's Quebec City version: Le journal de Québec) - Tabloidesque. Right-leaning, nationalist but not necessarily sovereignist. Major magazines are : L'Actualité - Current Affairs Protégez-Vous - Consumer protection Châtelaine - Women's mag Elle Québec - Young women's mag And a variety of tabloid mags that locals call "journaux à potins" There are also tons of independant magazines and revues that are too numerous to name. Edited by lecavaleur on 15 September 2012 at 2:29am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5432 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 59 of 82 15 September 2012 at 4:27am | IP Logged | ||
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The interesting thing about the national varieties of English is that they are all accepted as legitimate. There is no debate about American English straying too far from the British norm. American, Australian, Indian, New Zealand usage all coexist.
It's interesting to note that all the major national varieties of English have produced their own dictionaries and grammar reference works. Sure, the written language is very similar but there are distinct dictionaries that highlight the particularities of each national variety. In the case of Quebec French, one notes that despite huge amounts of money being spent on language-related issues in Quebec, in 2012 there is still no standard dictionary of Quebec French. There have been in the past, but there are all out of print. As for the Franqus it is a start in the right direction although there doesn't seem to be a set date for its commercialization. As we speak now, the dominant dictionaries in Quebec are Le Robert and Le Larousse. That says it all. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| lecavaleur Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4779 days ago 146 posts - 295 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish | Message 60 of 82 15 September 2012 at 6:19am | IP Logged | ||
The reason those dictionaries are out of print (Le Nouveau Petit Robert du Français Québécois, le Dictionnaire Plus, etc.) is because they did not meet the expectations of Quebec consumers. Cajolet-Laganière, in her presentation of the Dictionnaire Franqus, explained that the market research shows conclusively that Quebecker do not want a dictionary that tells them what their own words mean. They already know them. They want a dictionary that tells them the meaning of all the thousands of other words they don't already know. The only successful Quebec print dictionary so far is Marie-Éva de Villers' Multidictionnaire de la langue française, because it is a "corrective", prescriptive dictionary that will let the user know when they are using one of the many hidden Anglicisms of QF. They also want a dictionary that tells them when a particular term is a Québécisme and they want to know the SF equivalent. Franqus does all of these things. It is not a "Dictionnaire du français québécois". It is a "Dictionnaire du français vu du Québec". As for the many national varieties of English, they are not necessarily compared to the British standard. The United States is the world's proeminent Anglophone society, comprising 3/4 of the world's native English speakers. AE has replaced BE as the dominant English standard. BE retains a certain prestige, and an importance in most of its former colonies, but it is no longer the gold standard. This idiffers from the French situation quite a bit. Quebeckers represent about 5% of the world's Francophones. We definitely punch above our weight in almost everything, but if the Hexagonal variety continues to dominate, there aren't 36 reasons why (pour traduire l'expression française). It's because they are over 60 million, and we are just under 8, the Walloons just under 5 million and the French-speaking Swiss not even 2 million. As for the many African countries, that's a whole other story altogether, but suffice to say they prefer the Metropolitan standard as well. Quebec does need a dictionary like Franqus in order to appropriately catalogue all of the many valid, useful Québécismes and in order to give Quebeckers the power to know when a word means one thing in QF and another in SF. We don't know when the dictionary will come to print. It's been literally years since is was supposed to come out. I have been using the beta version online, but no more invitations to use it are available. I pass by Mme Cajolet-Laganière's office from time to time to ask, but she's never been in. Edited by lecavaleur on 15 September 2012 at 6:24am 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4670 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 61 of 82 15 September 2012 at 5:37pm | IP Logged | ||
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I have never heard of a Quebec French dictionary (nor a Belgian French or a Swiss French dictionary). It seems that the French lexicography is very Paris-centered in this regard.
On the other hand, there exist in-numerous dictionaries of Brazilian Portuguese, American English, two dictionaries of Canadian English, two dictionaries of Australian English, one dictionary of Kiwi English. As for Spanish, the descriptive dictionaries of Mexican Spanish and Argentinian Spanish are available, not only in the book form, but also online: for MX Spanish: http://dem.colmex.mx/ for AR Spanish: http://www.clarin.com/diccionario Many speakers of Quebec French think of their French as something inferior to the European variant of the language (unlike people in Switzerland or Belgium), similar to some speakers of Brazilian Portuguese and Chilean Spanish, but unlike speakers of Argentine Spanish and American English. Edited by Medulin on 15 September 2012 at 5:37pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| grunts67 Diglot Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5304 days ago 215 posts - 252 votes Speaks: French*, English Studies: Spanish, Russian | Message 62 of 82 15 September 2012 at 5:40pm | IP Logged | ||
If I had to advice on native resources to learn québécois, I would suggest to watch either TVS (even if hate this channel) and Radio-Canada. Those two are really different. For newspaper, without a doubt, La presse or Le Devoir depending if you prefer a right or left wing journal. I will never advice to read Le journal de Montreal because there is a lot of typos in this one even thought it's quiet a big newspaper. For magazine, I can't recommend anything. I don't read any. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5383 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 63 of 82 18 September 2012 at 9:34pm | IP Logged | ||
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This is hilarious!!!
Assimil published a book on Québec French called Le québécois de poche. It's absolutely horrific by the way, as every second word is either wrong or unheard of. I can't believe Assimil would continue to publish that, but anyway... Ironically, Amazon US calls the book Guide Poche Quebecois!!!!! "Poche" means "crappy".... 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Majka Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic kofoholici.wordpress Joined 4659 days ago 307 posts - 755 votes Speaks: Czech*, German, English Studies: French Studies: Russian | Message 64 of 82 18 September 2012 at 9:58pm | IP Logged | ||
Well, "nomen (est) omen" is one of the few still relatively often used Latin phrases in Czech :) 1 person has voted this message useful |
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