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Avoidance of shall | ||
Tags: Morphology | English | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Elexi Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5563 days ago 938 posts - 1840 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 33 of 37 29 October 2012 at 3:40pm | IP Logged | ||
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I too am a Londoner, have a comprehensive school education (so not upper class and
presumably not 'educated') and like Glarus Girl and Michaelyus use 'shall' in both polite request form (shall we go shopping?) and in the future tense (I shall do it tomorrow). I also use 'will' for the future tense interchangeably with 'shall' (I will do it tomorrow). I am quite surprised that non-native speakers find it archaic or stuffy, because, as I far as I know/hear, it is pretty much in normal usage in every day speech in South Eastern England, which (as those who live elsewhere in the UK endlessly complain :-)) is the version of English most heard on radio and television. Edited by Elexi on 29 October 2012 at 3:55pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Betjeman Groupie Germany Joined 6141 days ago 85 posts - 204 votes Speaks: German* | Message 34 of 37 30 October 2012 at 11:31am | IP Logged | ||
Thank you, Elexi, for pointing that out. As a lifelong ESL learner I am glad to learn from a native speaker that "shall" as a future form is neither old-fashioned nor, necessarily, posh but perhaps more widespread in the south of England than in other parts of the UK. Here is another quotation by grammarian Michael Swan: "Some British people use I shall and we shall instead of I/we will, with no difference of meaning in most situations ... Shall is unusual in American English in most situations." He seems to agree with you in that he avoids any class/education connotation. However, I have to admit that I am still unsure about P.D. James. Edited by Betjeman on 30 October 2012 at 11:41am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Jt00 Newbie United States Joined 4513 days ago 28 posts - 30 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Latin, Ancient Greek, Russian, French | Message 35 of 37 31 October 2012 at 3:26am | IP Logged | ||
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Here in Alabama, we hardly ever use "shall" unless we're referring to a Bible verse from an old version like the King James version, or unless we're being sarcastically dramatic. I've heard some people say "shall" in everyday speech, but they don't usually speak that way.
E.g. instead of, "Shall we go to the mall?" we say "Are we going to the mall?" or "Should we go to the mall?" Or, "He shall smite the wicked..." Or (sarcastically), "Oh, no! I shall drown!" 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Elexi Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5563 days ago 938 posts - 1840 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 36 of 37 31 October 2012 at 1:28pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think it is the case of tomato - tomatoe - potato - potatoe - and modern grammar books
regularly use US English as the standard to compare other varieties of English with. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| shk00design Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4442 days ago 747 posts - 1123 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French | Message 37 of 37 01 November 2012 at 11:44pm | IP Logged | ||
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We have to remember how grammar rules and syntax started to be fixed into European
languages a few hundred years ago with the invention of the printing press. Originally people would spell words all sorts of different ways since documents needed to be hand copied. Once printing was invented, people started to standardize spellings. Even word that doesn't sound the way it is written got into the language. And then there is American English. Being separate from the British they started changing a few word spellings including dropping "u" in words like colour, labour, neighbour, etc. Originally a number of English words came from French like manoeuvre became maneuver in American English. And then you have names that are written 1 way and pronounce another like Salisbury like "Salsbury", Gloucester like "Glouster", Leicester like "Lester" with the middle part silence and Sussex like "Sussix". And the name of the US state Arkansas like "Arkansaw". Lastly we have short-hands for texting that people still consider improper for writing but are frequently used like "C U later" instead of "see you later" and "4 U" instead of "for you". Edited by shk00design on 01 November 2012 at 11:46pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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