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Articles used as pronouns in German | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4620 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 1 of 11 26 October 2012 at 1:15pm | IP Logged | ||
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If you want to say "Do you know him?" in German, books and classes will point you towards "Kennst du ihn?"
But millions of Germans say "Kennst du den?" in real life. They have substituted the article (in the accusative case) for the "him" pronoun. This also happens in the nominative case. Ja, ich kenne Paul, der ist nett (der insted of er). Und Angela? Kennst du die? (die insted of sie). Angela und Paul? Die waren gestern hier (die instead of sie/they) It happens in the dative case as well. Dem geht's gut (dem instead of ihm). Are these forms considered gramatically correct or is it an everyday form of speech that is not quite standard German? I hear lots of people across the board using these article pronouns, it's not something I associate with how educated I perceive the speaker to be. Edited by beano on 26 October 2012 at 1:16pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cabaire Senior Member Germany Joined 5597 days ago 725 posts - 1352 votes | Message 2 of 11 26 October 2012 at 1:23pm | IP Logged | ||
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It is a very widespread, orally always acceptable colloquialism, which I would avoid in higher written registers.
DUDEN Die Grammatik comments: "Die Rückweisung im Nominativ, Dativ oder Akkusativ Singular und Plural durch der usw. statt durch das Personalpronomen wird oft als umgangssprachlich bezeichnet. Sie erscheint in dieser stilistischen Funktion z.B. auch in der Literatur: Auch der hatte jetzt keine Zeit mehr. (H. Hesse) "So ist es also mit der", sagte Hans Castorp. (Th. Mann) Edited by Cabaire on 26 October 2012 at 1:24pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4842 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 3 of 11 26 October 2012 at 1:37pm | IP Logged | ||
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"Der/die/das" as demonstrative pronouns belong to the colloquial language. They're grammatically absolutely correct, but you wouldn't use them in formal language. They can convey a certain idea of emotionality while the normal personal pronouns are more neutral.
If "der/die/das" are stressed very much, they can sound very negative and harsh, such as in: "Was will die denn schon wieder von mir?" (What does she want from me again?). In your example "Ja, ich kenne Paul, der ist nett", the "der" shows a certain affection for Paul, while a simple "Er ist nett" would be more indifferent. In other circumstances, "der/die/das" can simply replace personal pronouns without any implied judgement. It's just a colloquial way of speaking. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5379 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 4 of 11 26 October 2012 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | ||
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I get the impression this stems from the fact that you can also say "der Paul" or "die Tatjana".
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| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4666 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 5 of 11 29 October 2012 at 6:15pm | IP Logged | ||
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Der Paul, die Tatjana are a norm in Southern German (from Frankfurt a. Main southwards). They are avoided in the North Edited by Medulin on 29 October 2012 at 6:15pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4842 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 6 of 11 29 October 2012 at 6:27pm | IP Logged | ||
That's simply not true! Germans put articles in front of names in the North as well as in the South. You can even say: "Die Frau Müller hat gerade angerufen" (Mrs Müller just called). I doubt though that this might be the reason why articles can be used as demonstrative pronouns. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5764 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 7 of 11 29 October 2012 at 7:18pm | IP Logged | ||
I wouldn't hesitate using articles as deictic pronouns even in writing when trying for a certain effect, but using an article with a person's given name makes me cringe. Basically, the definite/indefinite distinction is used to convey: "Die Frau Müller hat angerufen." (Mrs Müller, who is known to both of us, called.) "Eine Frau Müller hat angerufen." (Mrs Müller, who is unknown to me but might be known to you, called.) Now, when using the definite article with a given name, I get the feeling of the message of 'that person is known to both of us' being conveyed twice, thus creating a stronger bond between the conversation partners. But yes, using articles as deictic pronouns seems to make sense. Apart from stronger emotional connotations, it also seems easier for Germans to understand who we are talking about that way because definite articles give a stronger impetus to search one's short term memory and surroundings for somebody/something they might point at. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6270 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 8 of 11 29 October 2012 at 10:18pm | IP Logged | ||
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I have heard it a great deal in colloquial German, without much noticeable variation from region to region.
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