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A simplified CERF | ||
Tags: CEFR Language Levels | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 5131 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes  Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 33 of 44 14 February 2013 at 5:36pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
No it's not sacred, but it sure does seem to be overused and misused here on HTLAL, and often misunderstood. I don't see anything wrong with trying to pinpoint where one is on a scale, but (re)defining yet another scale just seems... pointless. It's been done so many times in so many places. See the equuivalence chart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Re ference_for_Languages#Equiv alences_of_common_tests_to_CEFR_levels R. == Edited by hrhenry on 14 February 2013 at 6:46pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| sfuqua Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4766 days ago 581 posts - 977 votes Speaks: English*, Hawaiian, Tagalog Studies: Spanish | Message 34 of 44 14 February 2013 at 6:22pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I find the CEFR to be an excellent scale for describing levels of language. The FSI system we used in Peace Corps does not differentiate nearly as well at low levels. I hope that if I have ever described my CEFR level, I have always put qualifiers in which suggest that I am only expressing an opinion.
I admire and respect people who have gone to the trouble and expense of passing an actual test. I doubt if I ever will spend the time and money to do it. I intend to continue to use my "best guess" of my CEFR level, but I agree that my rough self assessment should not be taken very seriously. I recently downloaded a bunch of DELE practice tests, and I've played around some with listening comprehension sections. I "think" I'm about a B1 in Spanish listening comprehension. The listening comprehension sections suggest that I may be about there; the A1 and A2 level tests seem pretty easy. I think I *might* miss a question there, but not very many. The B1 and B2 level tests are pretty hard, and I don't think it is guaranteed that I would pass at these levels. Another thing that suggests that I might be B1, but probably wouldn't be much higher is that I don't see much difference between the B2,C1, and C2 tests. They all seem hard :) I have the week off from work next week, so I think I'm going to try to actually "give" myself one of the tests, at least the parts that I can "give myself". Of course this will still be just a "self assessment" and may not be any more accurate than the CEFR checklists. Maybe we need a new term for "self assessed CEFR". CEFR is too useful a scale to leave only for people who have completed the test. steve 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| AML Senior Member United States Joined 6826 days ago 323 posts - 426 votes 2 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: Modern Hebrew, German, Spanish | Message 35 of 44 14 February 2013 at 9:26pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Note that I specifically defined it as "for me" and that this thread is about our 'Personal CEFR' (edit: in my case it's a personal/simplified-for-my-simple-brain one). Therefore, you should relax and not take it so seriously. Edited by AML on 14 February 2013 at 9:30pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 36 of 44 14 February 2013 at 9:48pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I really don't take this question of the definition of fluency seriously except when I have to speak or write technically. But admittedly nothing prevents speakers from using a word in any which way as long as it is for personal use. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| sfuqua Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4766 days ago 581 posts - 977 votes Speaks: English*, Hawaiian, Tagalog Studies: Spanish | Message 37 of 44 14 February 2013 at 10:44pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Perhaps we could call and informal, idiosyncratically assessed CEFR an "iCEFR" :)
This would separate the scores of those of us who actually have been tested from those of us who are speculating. This would also have the advantage of reminding people of an expensive smart phone or digital audio player. If you put an "i" in front of the word people may think that that makes it better than a regular CEFR :) steve 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| DaraghM Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 6152 days ago 1947 posts - 2923 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Russian, Hungarian | Message 38 of 44 15 February 2013 at 10:21am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I think self assessment is a tricky beast. I wasn't confident enough to put my Spanish into the speaks category until I scored 90% in a Cervante's test at the end of the B2 work stream. This was a classroom based assessment across the four main proficiencies. As I've mentioned before, I really should've sat the DELE B2 test straight after, but I really wanted to return to my other languages at the time.
To gauge how I'm doing in French I'm using a lot of DELF based materials. I asked what courses the local Allliance Francaise are using, and I'm basing my study on these. I've also had to purchase the teachers books which contain the answer keys. The material includes grammar, listening, vocabulary and comprehension tests, Unless I'm scoring at 90% in these tests, I won't grant myself that level. At some point, I'll go for a placement test in the Alliance, and hopefully be placed near the end of the B2 course, or better still, the start of the C1. I don't mind underestimating my ability in a language, but I would hate to over estimate it and be proved wrong. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 39 of 44 15 February 2013 at 10:52am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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As for grammar... you can increase your accuracy significantly by avoiding certain features and paraphrasing. Assigning grammar topics to CEFR levels is convenient for textbooks/classes, but in reality, it shouldn't determine your level unless it's C1-C2.
I'd be wary of placement tests for classes, as they'd obviously want you to take as many classes as possible. And if you've been learning independently, the gaps in your knowledge will have little overlap with those of your fellow students. You'll know many things they don't know, and they'll also happen to know a thing or two that you don't know. (just reread and realized you're using the same books..hmm... too much trouble just for a somewhat more accurate self-assessment, imo. what if they assume that as an independent learner you're "too lazy for classes" and lack the structure in your studies, so that of course Their Awesome Students are better because they've taken classes and done homeworks for a few years) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 40 of 44 15 February 2013 at 11:18am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Self assessment of passive skills is fairly simple: you can normally feel whether a certain text is more or less hard for you to understand, and you can judge how large a percentage of the vocabulary you know. And those things are normally fairly stable over time over a wide range of sources.
In contrast, judging active skills is much more difficult because your performance level to a large extent depends on the concrete situation. In another thread a learner of Korean describes a total failure at speaking the language in a situation where his superior was present. But the same person could speak Korean fluently with his students. Your level is also very dependent on not only the topic in general, but things like the availability of just one single central word. I said one and only one sentence sentence in Danish during the Esperanto conference in Galway last year - and the thing that threw me off course was that there was one single thing I didn't know how to say .. and that ignominously little disturbance had a profoundly negative influence on my ability to say anything else in that language for several minutes. My brain was so to say still in search mode, and my skill level seemed to fall like a stone. But just before I was happily chatting away in Esperanto, and I continued to do so a few minutes later. Ultimately the whole notion of active proficiency AND fluency is implicitely based on a statistical average: given the normal amount of disturbances and external demands over time, how do you perform? It is meaningless to discuss active skills on the microlevel - there ain't no such thing. Or if there is, then it isn't a stable entity. Edited by Iversen on 15 February 2013 at 11:34am 5 persons have voted this message useful |
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