Why do languages die? (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

Why do languages die?
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19 messages over 3 pages: 1 2 3 Next >>

Γρηγόρη�
Tetraglot
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Message 9 of 19

27 February 2013 at 3:10pm | IP Logged

I find it interesting that whenever language death comes up, the first example mentioned is always Latin. The
situation of Latin, however, is manifestly different from what most people mean by language death. Latin simply
evolved naturally into the Romance languages. In a sense, it has not died, since there was never a radical break
from one generation to the next. If there were but one descendant of Latin, we might feasibly call that language
"Modern Latin." The type of language death that is so troubling is when a group suddenly gives up one language for
a completely unrelated language. This causes real cultural discontinuity between generations.
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vonPeterhof
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Message 10 of 19

27 February 2013 at 5:59pm | IP Logged

Didn't expect to see a mises.org article here. There's even a couple of comments by me in the comment section! Also, the author has two more language-related articles on that site, but they are probably a little too political to discuss on this forum.

tanya b wrote:

The article stated that a typical earthling speaks 3 or 4 languages. Based on what data? I think that outside of Northern Europe and the tribal areas of Asia and Africa, most are monoglots.

It's a pity he didn't source the sentence, because I would have liked to see the data as well. Wikipedia's page on Multilingualism states that "[m]ultilingual speakers outnumber monolingual speakers in the world's population" and links to this site. It does seem to be a reputable source, but also doesn't provide specific sources and just asserts that "available data indicate that there are many more bilingual or multilingual individuals in the world than there are monolingual".

Regardless, While four languages might be a little extreme, I actually don't find the assertion that most humans are multilingual that hard to believe. Regardless of how you define "tribal", Asia and Africa do have large, densely populated areas with people from varying linguistic backgrounds living in close proximity. In such areas the need to know one or more lingua francas (linguas franca? linguae francae?) definitely arises. Also, much depends on what it means to "speak a language" in this context. Native-like proficiency in three or four languages might be uncommon, but speaking just enough of a certain language to do some sort of business with its native speakers is pretty widespread in some areas. My great-uncle, a Soviet Korean who was raised in Siberia with Russian as his first language, spent much of his young adulthood in Uzbekistan. Every week he would go to the bazaar and haggle in fluent Uzbek. His young daughters, who had mandatory Uzbek at school but couldn't speak a lick of it, heard him haggle once and asked him to write their Uzbek essays instead of them. His essays got even worse grades than what they normally got, but it wasn't his essay writing skills that helped him put food on the table.
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lichtrausch
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Message 11 of 19

27 February 2013 at 6:35pm | IP Logged

tanya b wrote:

The Armenians of Iran have maintained their language for 400 years in
a country where they comprise less than 1% of the population. Their language is
anything but dead. They are acutely aware of their precarious position as a minority
and speaking Armenian is one legally sanctioned way of affirming their minority status.

But when they move to the US, the language is often lost in a generation, because some
of them let their defenses down and abandon the language.

In the case of Armenians and others, maybe the more threatened a nationality feels, the
less likely it is that its language will die.

I imagine this has more to do with geography than anything. Iranian Armenians probably
visit the homeland a lot more often than American Armenians do. Strong ties with the
homeland encourage the preservation of the heritage language.
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vonPeterhof
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Message 12 of 19

27 February 2013 at 7:47pm | IP Logged

lichtrausch wrote:

Iranian Armenians probably visit the homeland a lot more often than American Armenians do.

Well, yes and no. "No" in that, while it might be simpler nowadays, for much of the 20th century Soviet Armenia was almost as inaccessible to Iranians as it was to citizens of Western countries. "Yes" in that many if not most Iranian Armenians do in fact live in their historical homeland. The modern Republic of Armenia is only a small part of the historical region of the same name. Its exact boundaries are hard to define, but the geological region known as the Armenian Highland does include all the areas around and between the lakes Van (Turkey), Urmia (Iran) and Sevan (Armenia). While the Armenians in the Iranian part of that area may be outnumbered by Azeris, Kurds and Persians, it's still their historical homeland, so I guess your point does apply.
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Ari
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Message 13 of 19

28 February 2013 at 7:00am | IP Logged

Darklight1216 wrote:

You've piqued my interest by mentioning thse "virtual linguistic communities." Are you referring to people who simply speak X language with one another on the internet or are there entire websites dedicated to keeping particular languages alive and well?

Unfortunately I was only speaking in theoretical terms. Apart from Esperanto, I don't know of any such communities. However, I would think that "people who simply speak X language with one another on the internet" is a lot better and more useful for the language than "entire websites dedicated to keeping particular languages alive and well", which I think would not work very well. Anyone who has tried to keep a penpal for the sole purpose of using one's language knows it gets dull after a while unless a genuine friendship forms. The community would need to be a real one where people discuss events, organize meetups, write articles, make videos and so on. The community would have to exist because people like each other and have things to say. A community dedicated to preserving a language sounds to me like it's doomed to fail.
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jeff_lindqvist
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Message 14 of 19

28 February 2013 at 10:35am | IP Logged

Ari wrote:

Unfortunately I was only speaking in theoretical terms. Apart from Esperanto, I don't know of any such communities.

Ehtnologists in Sweden did some research on Nineveh in the 90s (see also Virtual Assyria). Not a virtual language community per se, but close enough.
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Zireael
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Message 15 of 19

28 February 2013 at 12:45pm | IP Logged

jeff_lindqvist wrote:

Ari wrote:

Unfortunately I was only speaking in theoretical terms. Apart from Esperanto, I don't know of any such communities.

Ehtnologists in Sweden did some research on Nineveh in the 90s (see also Virtual Assyria). Not a virtual language community per se, but close enough.

*gasp*! Any other attempts to revive dead or nearly dead languages using the internets?
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Iversen
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Message 16 of 19

28 February 2013 at 1:39pm | IP Logged

I have been thinking about the juxtaposition of "people who simply speak X language with one another on the internet" and the users of "entire websites dedicated to keeping particular languages alive and well?". In my opinion keeping languages alive and well through the internet depends on the presence both of language learnings materials (including translation utilities) AND other kinds of materials. Sometimes the first category is lacking, sometimes the second.

In the case of Esperanto a large proportion of the texts and videos I see on the internet deal with the language itself and ways to get more people to speak it, but in between there are also materials about other themes, including things that resembles ordinary chatting about sundry dailyday occupations. I just would like some more about that, in addition to the glorious Wikipedia project. If I can't find comprehensible texts about other things than language learning in a language on the internet then it isn't worth keeping it active, and maybe not even learning it for study purposes.

And similarly, in the case of Latin the electronic magazine Ephemerida and other 'modern' sources are not only a welcome supplement to Classical and Medieval historical texts, but a main part of the attraction this language has on me. Learning Latin actively at any level wouldn't be worth the effort if there wasn't some kind of community which produced new material.

The discussion about Latin as something which has survived in the Romance languages is interesting, but has little to do with the practical work there is to do to keep something alive. Latin doesn't come to life again just because I read something in Italian or watch TV from Spain. However the 'Neo-Latin' used in Ephemerida is so close to the language of Petronius and Svetonius and Albertus Magnus that Ephemerida can function as connection back in time to the Roman empire and Medieval Europe. Similarly Modern Danish does carry on the torch from Old Norse, but only Icelandic is so close to the old language that I feel that it is 'the same language' .. or at least a newer variant of it.

Edited by Iversen on 28 February 2013 at 1:58pm

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