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All Japanese All the Time Method Opinion? | ||
Tags: Learning Technique/Method | Japanese | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5701 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes  Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 17 of 34 21 July 2011 at 12:54pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I don't think learning 2000 root words without learning any grammar before you start working with comprehensible input is a good idea. I don't think memorizing basic and intermediate grammar without learning vocabulary before you start working with comprehensible input is a good idea. I don't think memorizing 2000 kanji without learning vocabulary or grammar before you start working with comprehensible input is a good idea. The last time I checked that was what he suggested. Apart from that general sentiment: if you learn an isolated aspect of a language up front you have to come up with strategies that let you fit that aspect in your current model of language, which happens to be formed after a language you already know. That means that the information you so diligently memorize is accessible via your base language. In the case of forced recall via an SRS it means that the connection between your base language and the new information becomes quite strong. Because RTK is meaning/mnemonic-based, this model of kanji will be interconnected mostly through semantic ties. One of the major differences between foreign speakers and native speakers is that even very good native speakers end up mixing up words that sound similar in a way that native speakers don't. The most plausible explanation I've read for that so far is that in a second language, the organization of the mental lexicon relies more strongly on phonolocigal similarity between words than in your native language. That also means that homophony is a bigger challenge for foreign speakers than for native speakers. Which means that on'yomi and Sinojapanese vocabulary is a big challenge. What I mean is that when you already have a detailed mental model of how kanji work which is based on single kanji and semantic clues alone it is more difficult to learn how to reorganize that model so that you can use access it via your actual Japanese vocabulary than when you learn it at the same time as you are learning the vocabulary. So, I mean that if you like the RTK approach, it is a good idea to skim through the book as a beginner and then work through it while you are working on the other aspects of the language. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6485 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 18 of 34 22 July 2011 at 4:01am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I don't necessarily disagree with this, but I believe it depends on the learner's language plan.
I assume that's a typo.
This is an interesting version of the popular argument that RTK keywords are somehow detrimental to the learning process. But I find your opinion that RTK will cause problems when encountering homophony phony. I will take the word of many successful users, including my own, over the theory you read. Because it has worked for so many people, from the beginning and at other stages, the only argument that holds water against RTK is the one of time. Take 2 students. Both learn the language and the kanji in essentially the same way, except for the fact that one uses RTK. Who will reach fluency first? IMO, no other questions regarding RTK are worth debating. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5701 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 19 of 34 22 July 2011 at 6:18am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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No, it was a mistake. I make them all the time. I guess it would have been easier to parse with 'similar sounding words'.
Did you actually read what I wrote? I did not say that I find it likely that RTK will cause problems when you use it. I said that I find it likely that RTK will add unnecessary difficulty if you use it to learn kanji before you learn any other aspect of the language. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| galindo Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5142 days ago 142 posts - 248 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish*, Japanese Studies: Korean, Portuguese | Message 20 of 34 22 July 2011 at 1:05pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I agree with Bao about RTK, and that's the main issue I have with the AJATT method. I also never did sentence mining and I didn't watch anything without subtitles until I could understand most of the words. Focusing on comprehensible input is more efficient.
But I do think it's great that he's found a way to make money off his site, and I don't think it's hypocritical of him to offer a paid course, since it seems like it's simply a very detailed version of the advice on his site meant for people who really have no clue what they should watch/read/listen to.
That would mostly depend on how long it takes someone to finish RTK. Most people give up before they finish it, so I think it's just one of those things that works for certain people. That's why I don't think it's good to recommend it so strongly to EVERYONE. The main reason I dislike it is because it teaches false names for kanji components and fake etymology, and encourages you to make up your own. The kanji system as a whole makes more sense if you learn the real names for radicals. When you ask someone how to write the kanji in their name and they list the components, you need to know which ones they are talking about, and RTK won't help you with that at all. Also, it's useful to know which parts of a character contribute meaning and which parts were meant to be phonetic information, instead of assuming all the parts mean something. I enjoyed reading A Guide to Remembering Japanese Characters by Kenneth Henshall and would recommend it over RTK, even though it has it's own problems. Edited by galindo on 22 July 2011 at 1:07pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6610 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 21 of 34 22 July 2011 at 5:08pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Apart from technical questions, this alljpananeseallthetime approach is a HARDCORE approach.
Maybe this is not for everyone, but if you want to learn a foreign language to a near native level and this is not a closely related language to yours, you have an EXTREME goal. If you want to achieve a EXTREME goal, you need EXTREME methods and approaches. That is to say, you need to pay the price. There is no free-lunch. Edited by slucido on 22 July 2011 at 5:13pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5946 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 22 of 34 22 July 2011 at 6:07pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
If I want to break a rock, I'll buy a lump-hammer or a pick-axe. That's far more effective that headbutting in constantly during every waking moment. Humanity's greatest asset is intelligence -- we should be beyond brute force by now.... 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6610 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 23 of 34 22 July 2011 at 8:00pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
As usual, straw man fallacy...and so on. A lot of times the most practical and useful movement is extreme, intense and INTELLIGENT brute force. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6485 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 24 of 34 23 July 2011 at 5:05am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yes. Despite your disclaimers, your argument was independent of timeline.
Totally agree.
This is the old "why doesn't RTK teach xyz aspects of kanji too?" argument. It's designed for speed. Again, users do pretty much everything non-users do to learn kanji, but in addition, they do RTK. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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