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All Japanese All the Time Method Opinion? | ||
Tags: Learning Technique/Method | Japanese | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6013 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes  Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 25 of 34 23 July 2011 at 8:45am | IP Logged | ||||||||
No it's not, his argument is that not about any "aspects" of kanji, it's about the fundamental nature of the kanji. Whether it's important or not, I don't know, but the argument's more complex that you make out. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5768 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 26 of 34 23 July 2011 at 11:59am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Actually, it was not. I know that you want to read it that way, but that doesn't change that I went out of my way to make clear that I only see a problem with the method when, as you may want to put it, the timeline is wrong.
That's exactly the point. People who use RTK to learn kanji up front, especially in the way described by Khatzumoto, do not do "pretty much everything non-users do". Edited by Bao on 23 July 2011 at 12:00pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6552 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 27 of 34 23 July 2011 at 9:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
He makes some statements about the "fundamental nature of kanji" in there. But the result is that he's implying RTK doesn't teach enough, or doesn't teach properly. And the point is moot because if you study kanji the same way he did, but add RTK, the "problem" is solved.
You argued against translation and out-of-context learning, which is not restricted to upfront learning of RTK. Add the fact that there are so many people who have successfully learned this way, and you'll understand why I don't believe your post.
Sure they do. RTK reduces the grunt work, but it doesn't eliminate any major steps required to learn kanji. Perhaps you are talking about people who never reach fluency? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| galindo Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5209 days ago 142 posts - 248 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish*, Japanese Studies: Korean, Portuguese | Message 28 of 34 23 July 2011 at 10:02pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Not that it matters, but I'm a she. As far as RTK not teaching enough or not teaching properly, I was mainly arguing against it within the context of Khatzumoto recommending it as a fundamental part of his method. I wouldn't mind if he said, "Hey, this works for some people, so give it a try." But he makes it out to be THE way to learn kanji, and he makes it seem like anyone who doesn't want to do it that way is just unmotivated. More than not teaching enough or not teaching properly, I simply don't see any added benefit from starting out with RTK as opposed to learning the kanji together with the vocabulary you learn. And I do think it's somewhat detrimental to make up your own stories for the parts of each kanji and the reasons they are combined in certain patterns, instead of learning the actual etymology behind them, because it reduces your ability to guess the meaning of an unknown character.
If it doesn't eliminate any major required steps, how does that equate to reducing grunt work? I think everyone will inevitably feel loyal to whatever method they used to learn, but RTK seems like much more work than the way I learned. I guess it can help people "get it over with" in a sense, but I do think it adds to the amount of work you have to do before being able to read. However, thanks to the order it introduces the characters in I think RTK can be useful as a way to learn to write for someone who has only learned to read. Edited by galindo on 23 July 2011 at 10:03pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Lucky Charms Diglot Senior Member Japan lapacifica.net Joined 6951 days ago 752 posts - 1711 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: German, Spanish | Message 29 of 34 24 July 2011 at 4:33am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I've never used RTK, so I don't know if they use any accurate etymology sometimes or if it's 100% made up, but I'm not sure that learning the real etymology is neessarily helpful beyond a few common and straightforward radicals like "water", "hand", "movement" etc. I have Henshall's book, which shows the etymology for each character and radical, and while fascinating I find the origins mostly obscured and unhelpful. For example, I don't know what a "winnowing device" is, and it doesn't seem to affect the meaning of the kanji it shows up in anyway (for example, there's a lot of explanations like "it was used by mistake as a substitute for another character that had the same sound in Classical Chinese".) Even Henshall will often write "suggest taking as BROKEN HAND" or the like, suggesting that sometimes etymological accuracy needs to be sacrificed in order to create an easy-to-understand mnemonic. Edited by Lucky Charms on 24 July 2011 at 4:36am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| galindo Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5209 days ago 142 posts - 248 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish*, Japanese Studies: Korean, Portuguese | Message 30 of 34 24 July 2011 at 5:32am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yeah, and there is also a lot of disagreement about some of the etymology, so it's definitely not entirely accurate. But for me and some other people, it makes the system as a whole make more sense than labeling parts as "a slide" or "a man holding a baseball bat." Interpreting characters as if they were abstract pictures of modern objects just seems... wrong?
That's exactly the sort of explanation that I find useful! I think it's very important for beginners to learn that not every part of a character means something. And Henshall's mnemonics are the main thing I dislike about the book, along with the awful script. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5768 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 31 of 34 24 July 2011 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I don't expect you to believe my post - after all, I am not a guru or visionary. And I am quite sure I made clear that everything I wrote is about learning kanji upfront, and nothing else. Are you having fun trolling a bit again?
I am quite curious, did you actually learn the jouyou kanji before you did any other work on Japanese? If you, did you write about the process while you were at it? If not, what exactly did you do? Edited by Bao on 24 July 2011 at 5:24pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6013 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 32 of 34 24 July 2011 at 8:19pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
The existence of exceptions doesn't invalidate the general rule. In fact, in many languages irregular formations gain in expressivity by contrast to the regular ones... 1 person has voted this message useful |
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