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| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5335 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes  Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 17 of 30 18 July 2012 at 12:08am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Just in case I was unclear, I was not trying to say that we do not use feminine forms in the Oslo dialect. The three gender system is intact also here, I was just trying to point out that is varies with who you speak to, mood, how tired you are, etc. even within the speech of the same person. If I am tired, mad and speaking to someone I am very familiar with (husband, kids, siblings) I would be more likely to use feminines. If I am relaxed, in a good mood, and speaking with a little old lady from Western Oslo, or a director of my company that I had just met, I would be more likely to use the masculine form for the same words. Since I am fairly conservative and middle aged that pushes me towards a higher percentage of masculines, but even I use some feminines at almost all times. (Cat, street, cow etc.) Someone younger and/or more radical would be likely to use more feminines, but would still use some masculines. Anything between 95% percent masculines or feminines would be fine - but 100 percent feminines or a 100 percent masculines would sound off. Which is actually good news for learners, because you have a very good chance of getting it right:-) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4669 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 18 of 30 18 July 2012 at 10:20pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I think the usage of feminine is very dialect-dependent.
In Bergen, Bærum and posh parts of West Oslo, the feminine is never used, even the cow is kuen, and the girl is jenten. On the other hand, in Stavanger, Trondheim or in Tromsø, they use the feminine all the time, like in the Nynorsk-area (Sogn, Voss). In East Oslo, sometimes people use the feminine even for words which cannot be feminine at all in Bokmaal, according to Bokmaalsordboka, the official dictionary: http://www.nob-ordbok.uio.no/perl/ordbok.cgi?OPP=&bokmaal=+& ordbok=bokmaal For example, they say DIALEKTA (in Bokmaal: DIALEKTEN, the dialect) or Låta (in Bokmaal: Låten, the song, the tune). If you read Norwegian newspapers, you can see differences in usage 1) Aftenposten, and VG treat all feminine nouns as masculine: Solen, Jorden,boken, natten, sengen, moren... 2) Dagbladet, and Dagsavisen treat most feminine nouns as feminine, but they never (or rarely) bother with the indefinite feminine article, so, the pattern is: en jente - jenta, en bok - boka, en havn - havna, Sola di, rettskrivinga mi The regional newspapers in Bokmaal follow this 2nd trend (except for the Bergen and parts of Akershus which follow the 1st trend). What I think 1. both systems (2 gender and 3 gender) are nice, you can not say the one used in West Oslo or Bergen is ugly, and the other one is nice, or vice versa, they're just different. 2. 2 gender system is easier for learners, fewer things to bother with 3. 3 gender system may be more logical for people who speak a language with a 3 gender system, like my own, Croatian, to me, female forms in -A sound much better than the ones in - EN, since in my language (Croatian), most female forms are in -A, so boka = knjiga (book), grana = smreka (spruce tree), havna = luka (port, harbor) heksa = vještica (witch) katta = mačka (cat) lista = lista (list) lampa = lampa (lamp) adressa = adresa (address) grensa = granica (limit, border) jakka = jakna (jacket) To me, female forms sound much better because of that, but this is just my PERSONAl opinion/taste. Even in 3 gender Norwegian system, nouns are easier to memorize than in German, because the articles are attached to the noun: HUSET, MUSA, BILEN is easier to memorize than das Haus, die Maus, das Auto... If you learn the 3 gender Norwegian, you can always write a more formal sounding article/paper by automatically changing the gender from F---> M: boka-> boken. But, the opposite is not true. While some people in Oslo DO say DIALEKTA or Låta, forms which are not acceptable not even in the most radical Bokmaal (in Nynorsk it's DIALEKTEN too, not DIALEKTA), foreigners will sound non-native when they use originally masculine words in feminine, for example in the case of words like SKOLE or REPUBLIK (skola and republika don't exist, it's skolen and republiken). In ''newer'' loan-words, the gender is always masculine, and never feminine: en pizza--> pizzaen en republikk-> republikken en person ---> personen en mamma --> mammaen When in doubt, learners can check Bokmaalordboka: http://www.nob-ordbok.uio.no/perl/ordbok.cgi?OPP=&bokmaal=+& ordbok=bokmaal some examples: JENTE f1 el. m1 (norr genta, av gant 'spøk, fjas') KU f1 el. m1 el. kyr, kyrne i fl (norr kýr, dat og akk. kú) HAVN f1 el. m1 (norr h&oogon;fn) DRONNING f1 el. m1 (norr dróttning, av dróttinn 'drott') MAMMA m1 (gj ty. og fr fra lat. mamma 'kvinnebryst', trol opph fra barnespråk)
I use historie as masculine mostly, and I vacillate between musen and musa (for the mouse) ;) Maybe, if the mouse is masculine, I use musen, when talking about Mikke Mus for example, and when talking about Minnie Mus, I might say musa ;) I might use katten for the tomcat, and katta for the female cat ;) [but for the general cat, I use katta]). [I say dialekten, låten and not dialekta, låta ;)] Edited by Medulin on 18 July 2012 at 11:38pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4669 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 19 of 30 18 July 2012 at 10:38pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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These are the nouns used in Teach Yourself Norwegian course (2004) which can be treated as feminine (at least in the definite form), according to Bokmålsordboka,
(I left out the English article to save some space, but you should interpret it as: boka= book---> ei/en bok---> boka/boken): 01 adressa = address; 02 avisa = newspaper; 03 badstua = sauna; 04 befolkninga = population; 05 bleia = nappy, diaper; 06 blusa = blouse; 07 bløtkaka = gateau, cake; 08 boka = book; 09 bokhylla = bookshelf; 10 bomulla = cotton; 11 brua = bridge; 12 brygga = quay, jetty; 13 buksa = trousers; 14 bygninga = building; 15 bøtta = bucket; 16 dama = lady; 17 dronninga = queen; 18 døra = door; 19dørklokka = doorbell; 20 eggerøra = scrambled eggs; 21 eplesafta = apple juice; 22 erfaringa = experience; 23 eska = box; 24 farmora = grandmother; 25 fartsgrensa = speed limit; 26 ferja = ferry; 27 festninga = castle; 28 flaska = bottle; 29 forretninga = business; 30 framtida = future; 31 fritida = leisure; 32 frukta = (kind of) fruit; 33 gardina = curtain; 34 gata = street; 35 grønnsaka = vegetable; 36 historia = history, story; 37 hjelpa = help; 38 hodepina = headache; 39 hostesafta = cough medicine/syrup; 40 hovedgata = main street; 41 hytta = cotage; 42 hånda = hand; 43 jakka = coat/jacket; 44 jenta = girl; 45 jorda = earth; 46 jula = Christmas; 47 julekaka = Christmas cake; 48 julinga = beating, hiding; 49 kaka = cake; 50 katta = cat; 51 kirka = church; 52 kirkeklokka = church bell; 53 klokka = clock; 54 kona = wife; 55 krona = unite of Norwegian currency; 56 kusina = female cousin; 57 kvitteringa = receipt; 58 kåpa = overcoat; 59 lammeste(i)ka = rost lamb; 60 lammeulla = lambswool; 61 leiligheta = flat; 62 lua = cap; 63 lufta = air; 64 matpakka = packet meal; 65 melka = milk; 66 midnatta = midnight; 67 mora = mother; 68 moroa = fun; 69 muligheta = possibility; 70 molta = cloudberry; 71 natta = night; 72 nesa = nose; 73 niesa = niece; 74 nista = packet meal; 75 ordlista = word list; 76 parafinlampa = parrafin lamp; 77 pilla = pille; 78 plikta = duty; 79 poteta = potato; 80 pølsa = sausage; 81 påska = Easter; 82 regninga = bill; 83 reka = prawn; 84 safta = juice; 85 senga = bed; 86 sida = site; 87 silda = herring; 88 skia = ski; 89 skjea = spoon; 90 skjorta = shirt; 91 skoletida = school time; 92 skuldra = shoulder; 93 sola = sun; 94 stripa = stripe; 95 strømpa = stocking; 96 strømpebuksa = tights; 97 stua = living room; 98 sykesenga = hospital bed; 99 synda = pitty; 100 søstra = sister; 101 tanta = aunt; 102 tida = time; 103 trusa = pants; 104 trøya = vest; 105 tåa = toe; 106 tåra = tear; 107 uka = week; 108 ulla = wool; 109 ulykka = accident; 110 underbuksa = underpants; 111 utsikta = view; 112 utstillinga = exhibition; 113 venninna = female friend; 114 åpningstida = opening time; 115 årsaka = reason; 116 årstida =season I used the vocabulary section, at the end of the course, so, in case you're interested, in this course, there were used: 116 f (m) words (21.5%) 318 m words (58.6%) 108 n words (19.9%) Edited by Medulin on 18 July 2012 at 11:35pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5454 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 20 of 30 18 July 2012 at 10:38pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
And, just in case I wasn't clear, I wasn't trying to imply that the feminine is not used in the Oslo dialect. What I was trying to say is that the more or less free choice between the feminine and masculine forms (for feminine nouns, not for masculine nouns, of course) that you describe is not a feature of most Norwegian dialects. They have three distinct genders (like Nynorsk), and feminine nouns are not given a masculine form at will. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5454 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 21 of 30 18 July 2012 at 10:59pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I've often heard people from other parts of the country, not only from Oslo, say "dialekta" and "låta" too. "Dialekta" always sounds wrong and weird too me; "låta" not so much. "Skola" is actually used in many dialects in Nordland, among them the Bodø dialect.
While "pizza", "republikk" and "person" is masculine in both Bokmål and Nynorsk, "mamma" is masculine in Bokmål and feminine in Nynorsk, which only shows that picking the right gender is not always obvious even for native speakers.
Yes, Bokmålsrordboka and Nynorskordboka are great tools, not only for learners, but for natives too. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4829 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 22 of 30 19 July 2012 at 3:24am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Notwithstanding what has been said above about the TYS (2004), on page 15, unit 1, of
my edition, it says: "Don't worry about the feminine gender because: - Most feminine nouns can be used as masculine - there are not many feminine nouns - In Norwegian Literature, newspapers and formal speech, one seldom uses feminine gender. For this reason, masculine and feminine nouns are grouped together and called the common gender. This leaves en- words and et-words...." In view of what has been said in previous posts, it seems that TYS (2004) is rather over-simplifying things, and perhaps leaving the learner to be a bit complacent about the real situation. :-( 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4669 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 23 of 30 19 July 2012 at 7:01am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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-'' Most feminine nouns can be used as masculine''
YES and NO, it depends on the dialect, on the type of Bokmaal (radical vs moderate vs conservative), on the speaker; some people who use feminine in speech may write in a very formal/conservative way, but many people write like they speak (radical Bokmaal is close, but not identical to the dialect of East Oslo and Romerike region, because radical Bokmaal uses the old West Norwegian diphthongs, as in AUST ''East''). - ''there are not many feminine nouns'' around 25% of Norwegian nouns are feminine, 55% are masculine, 20% are neutral - ''In Norwegian Literature, newspapers and formal speech, one seldom uses feminine gender. '' Not true, in formal speech, speakers use their respective dialects, yes even in the Norwegian parliament. Even if we leave out Oslo, and Bergen, there are 3.5 million Norwegians who use the feminine...As for literature, it depends on the author. Jo Nesbø and Per Petterson, for example, use the feminine very consistently....As for newspapers, it depends on a publisher, and on a journalist...Aftenposten and VG don't use the female gender; Dagbladet and Dagsavisen use the female gender. These are the top 4 national Norwegian newspapers. There is no requirement to use conservative Bokmaal (Riksmaal) in formal documents, papers, thesis. I've seen science papers in radikal Bokmal (bordering on Nynorsk), which is not really strange. All formal documents can be submitted in 5 styles; 1) conservative Nynorsk 2) radical Nynorsk 3) radical Bokmaal 4) neutral Bokmaal 5) conservative Bokmaal Mixing Nynorsk and Bokmaal is not allowed, and mixing styles within the standard is discouraged (Jenten kasta boken i elva). From what I've read, linguists say that even the consistent use of the definite feminine forms, past simple in -A and neutral plural in A do not automatically label the style of Bokmaal as RADICAL. Radical Bokmaal is a type of Bokmaal which consistently uses only forms shared with Nynorsk, and allowed by Bokmaalsordboka, for example: mjølk, aust, steik etc. ei framtid - framtida [radical Bokmaal) en framtid - framtida / framtiden (neutral Bokmaal) en fremtid - fremtiden (conservative Bokmaal/Riksmaal) --- and a bit of the neutral gender in plural: a sample from Aftenposten) ''Barnene utelukket.'' http://www.aftenposten.no/meninger/debatt/article1285938.ece Barnene is a marked conservative form usead instead of neutral and radical BARNA. In theory, all neutral gender nouns can get a plural in -A, but in practice, in neutral Bokmaal, there are preferences of occurance: BARNA > BE(I)NA > HUSA > SYKEHUSA > EPLA Barnene is a marked conservative form, barna is moderate and radical Bokmaal. Husa is acceptable in moderate Bokmaal, it is not particulary radical, even sykehusa may be acceptable in moderate Bokmaal. The radical Bokmaal form would is: sjukehusa . ;) Edited by Medulin on 19 July 2012 at 7:45am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5335 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 24 of 30 19 July 2012 at 9:23am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I think we need this to get back on track, and have a look at what is in the best interest of a learner. Most of them would want to learn a dialect which is consistent, which sounds educated, which is understood by everyone, and which do not have too many different choices. The logical choice would be a moderate Bokmål. (I just looked up the entries on Wikipedia, and the more radical Bokmål could for a sentence where there were just one correct version in moderate Bokmål/Riksmål have 48 different versions in radical Bokmål). Before the last language reform, that same sentence could have more than 100 different variants. I think most beginners would opt for the easier one, and then they could make informed choices based on their political views once they have learned the language properly.
There is therefore good reasons to focus on the usage in Oslo West, as that comes closest to the language most beginners will learn. Madulin, I must congratulate you on your knowledge about my language, and I look forward to speaking with you some day. There are however a number of statements that are not completely accurate.
Actually mixing Nynorsk and Bokmål into "Samnorsk" was official government policy until just a few years ago. I grew up with school books which mixed the two (with mjøl, mjølk, graut). I think that variant was equally hated by both those who spoke Nynorsk and those who spoke moderate Bokmål. My teacher tried his best to force us to use that variant, but I always used the traditional spelling, even if he downgraded my paper for it every time. Barnene is not used, even in a conservative language. Barna is the common form. Husa or sykehusa are most certainly not acceptable in moderate Bokmål, I do not even hear it used much in radical Bokmål. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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