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General tips for new learners | ||
Tags: Beginner | Learning Technique/Method | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Merv Bilingual Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5208 days ago 414 posts - 749 votes  Speaks: English*, Serbo-Croatian* Studies: Spanish, French | Message 17 of 59 03 January 2011 at 2:34am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I don't mind your disagreeing with me. It just seemed to me that this was a thread where people posted a collection of tips and then moved on. Not one in which they attacked other posts with one-liners that are no more authoritative than the post they are disagreeing with. I think it's well accepted that early speaking is good, so I realize full well that my opinion is in the minority. However, I felt no need to write a treatise on why I think so, I just stated my view on the matter, which is what the first post requested. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Merv Bilingual Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5208 days ago 414 posts - 749 votes Speaks: English*, Serbo-Croatian* Studies: Spanish, French | Message 18 of 59 03 January 2011 at 2:45am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Granted it is generally best to use texts written originally in the target language. Perhaps you didn't understand why I advocated using a limited scope of translated texts. I said you should use a text that you know very well, front and back, up and down. The more advanced the text, the more sophisticated the ideas and scenarios it discusses (assuming it's not science, which is too specialized), the more likely you are to learn sophisticated means of expression and advanced vocabulary. I did not advocate reading translations of Harry Potter or the Little Prince. I gave a personal example of the Bible because I know this text in the King James Version (1611) very well. I have whole verses, chapters of it, even, embedded in my memory. I cannot reproduce it on cue but I can recognize it. That is why reading the same text in a close Spanish translation is so effective, because I know what's going on, so I just map the new Spanish word to the English equivalent without needing to turn to dictionaries, online resources, etc. I'm sure others can do the same with favorite books, movies, etc. And I think it is unwise to make blanket statements like "Texts originating in target language are better, imo." While it may be true in most cases, it is not true for the case I mentioned. It's well known that the KJV had a huge impact on the English language, as Luther's Bible did in German, the Church Slavonic Bibles and liturgies on the Russian language, etc. Perhaps the RV did not have such an impact on the Spanish language, but to suggest flat out that translated texts are universally inferior is not helpful. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| lingoleng Senior Member Germany Joined 5233 days ago 605 posts - 1290 votes | Message 19 of 59 03 January 2011 at 2:50am | IP Logged | ||||||||
This thread is about general tips for new learners, this is what it is about. If you are a philologist and want to study the masterpieces of a language you will want to read original literature. Of course. You will always want to read it when you have reached an advanced level. Of course. But for a beginner who makes his first steps in a language and reads his first novels it does simply not matter at all if he reads translated literature he enjoys, in most cases some years will pass until this learner will really be able to notice the loss of nuance, inevitable, and most learners, let's face it, will never reach this stage. So I can only repeat it: In the context of this thread it does not matter at all if you read translated literature. An exceptionally bad translation would be a handicap, yes, but all the major authors have good translators, and even amateurs can produce reasonable texts in their native language, as can be seen in the case of the diverse HP translations which were made by fans and enthusiasts. This level is good enough for a start, and not in every case will the learner reach a level where this becomes insufficient. imo 8 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6485 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 20 of 59 03 January 2011 at 3:37am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Totally agree.
I feel it's damaging to encourage beginners to use L1 translations, especially without explaining the pitfalls. Trivializing the pitfalls doesn't make it better. From the standpoint of a nativeEnglish speaker, where you get undesirable nuance changes in languages like French and Spanish, you get major plot changes in Mandarin, Thai and Japanese; dialogues and jokes often don't work because of differences in grammar, vocabulary, idioms and culture, for example. So beginners, using L2 material is the way to go. Translate it if you must, but avoid using something that was written in another language. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| lingoleng Senior Member Germany Joined 5233 days ago 605 posts - 1290 votes | Message 21 of 59 03 January 2011 at 9:16am | IP Logged | ||||||||
What a drama! Do you believe what you say? So I lose a joke here and there. Who cares as long as it is written in Mandarin, Thai or Japanese. If you buy the wrong book because of the unsurmountable cultural differences - well, that would be a problem. Edited by lingoleng on 03 January 2011 at 12:14pm 9 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| sjheiss Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5619 days ago 100 posts - 174 votes Speaks: English*, Basque | Message 22 of 59 03 January 2011 at 7:53pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
You are a much more sensible man lingoleng, I agree with you. A well translated book will be a lot better in the beginning stages of learning a language, because it will have the grammar and vocabulary natives use, but not usually cultural differences and things like that that will cause confusion. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| lingoleng Senior Member Germany Joined 5233 days ago 605 posts - 1290 votes | Message 23 of 59 03 January 2011 at 9:46pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
What I said is: Reading translations does not hurt the language acquisition of a (new, unexperienced, not advanced) learner. When thousands of Chinese people read a chinese version of Harry Potter or Moby-Dick, then the language in these versions can be regarded as native, these books become part of Chinese culture and language as soon as competent professional translations are available for a broader public. I can read them without the fear of learning wrong unidiomatic language. If an original book in your target language is too complicated because you don't have any knowledge about your "target culture", then it is possible that you should not read this book as your first L2 book, it may slow down your learning. In such a case it may not only be allowed but even recommendable to start with an easier translation where you don't have these cultural problems. Generally speaking I don't think reading translations is preferable, of course. Reading original literature in your target language is good for a deeper understanding of a culture. I think I agree with Leosmith in this regard, but I don't think one should forbid translations (because a good translation becomes part of a culture, as noted above and because the language it is written in is authentic, maybe inferior and different in comparison with the original, but from the learners perspective this can be ignored). Edited by lingoleng on 03 January 2011 at 9:50pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6485 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 24 of 59 04 January 2011 at 2:39am | IP Logged | ||||||||
If the translator has modified things in such a way to make it fit L2 and it's culture, I agree. I've never read a translation that did this - there's always been stuff that doesn't make sense in L2, but I believe you when you say this has been done. Of course, the story has changed, but maybe that's not a concern to a language learner. But I still say use original L2 stuff unless there is a lack of resources. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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