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Dreadslinger
Newbie
United States
Joined 4828 days ago
18 posts - 30 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 49 of 59
03 July 2011 at 8:39pm | IP Logged 
I was rather disappointed that I didn't see much reference to using the internet for one's language studies. Yes, there is a lot of misinformation to be found, of course, but as the primary goal of the internet is communication on a global scale, I believe it only makes sense to utilize the multitudinous tools which can be found therein. For example, few resources give a better example of what NOT to say than weblogs typed in language "X". Also, newscasts in one's target language can be found all over the place, often times when one can't even find them on television. Of course, not everyone wants to speak like Tom Brokaw, or his (in my case) Russian counterpart, but I believe it's a good basis as newscasters are paid to speak clearly and concisely (Serene Branson's Grammy report notwithstanding) regarding major events. This will also give one knowledge of the modern culture behind one's target language, which I personally always find to be something worth studying, if for no other reason than to keep me interested in the language which I am trying to learn.
3 persons have voted this message useful



Icaria909
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5526 days ago
201 posts - 346 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Spanish

 
 Message 50 of 59
06 July 2011 at 5:58am | IP Logged 
1. Never trust pronunciation guides that come with courses. It is far better to listen to
the cds with a course and to jot down notes about how you think a letter or letter
combination sounds than to constantly refer to the "pronunciation chart." From Russian to
French, doing this has always vastly improved my pronunciation.

Edited by Icaria909 on 06 July 2011 at 5:58am
6 persons have voted this message useful



garyb
Triglot
Senior Member
ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5142 days ago
1468 posts - 2413 votes 
Speaks: English*, Italian, French
Studies: Spanish

 
 Message 51 of 59
06 July 2011 at 11:14am | IP Logged 
Icaria909 wrote:
1. Never trust pronunciation guides that come with courses. It is
far better to listen to
the cds with a course and to jot down notes about how you think a letter or letter
combination sounds than to constantly refer to the "pronunciation chart." From Russian
to
French, doing this has always vastly improved my pronunciation.


I agree. Especially if the guides claim that certain sounds are the same as English
sounds, for example "like the a in father" or "the ou in soup", as often they're not
exactly the same, and even in English these sounds can be different depending on
accent. These analogies can be useful as long as they point out that it's similar and
explain the differences, but they generally don't. Not teaching pronunciation well is
the weak point of pretty much every course I've ever come across.

However, just figuring it out by listening has never worked for me either: if you're
not aware of the differences, it's hard to pick them out by ear and tell that, say, the
French "ou" is further back and more rounded than the English "ou in soup", or even
that it's different sound from the "u". Then again, some people do seem to be able to
pick up the sound system accurately just by listening and don't have to study it
extensively like I do. But for the rest of us, my recommendation is to take
pronunciation seriously from the start and find a resource that teaches the sound
system properly and accurately, explaining the positions of the tongue, lips, etc., and
continue to keep it a focus as you learn.
4 persons have voted this message useful



Dreadslinger
Newbie
United States
Joined 4828 days ago
18 posts - 30 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 52 of 59
07 July 2011 at 4:42am | IP Logged 
garyb wrote:
Icaria909 wrote:
1. Never trust pronunciation guides that come with courses. It is
far better to listen to
the cds with a course and to jot down notes about how you think a letter or letter
combination sounds than to constantly refer to the "pronunciation chart." From Russian
to
French, doing this has always vastly improved my pronunciation.


I agree. Especially if the guides claim that certain sounds are the same as English
sounds, for example "like the a in father" or "the ou in soup", as often they're not
exactly the same, and even in English these sounds can be different depending on
accent. These analogies can be useful as long as they point out that it's similar and
explain the differences, but they generally don't. Not teaching pronunciation well is
the weak point of pretty much every course I've ever come across.

However, just figuring it out by listening has never worked for me either: if you're
not aware of the differences, it's hard to pick them out by ear and tell that, say, the
French "ou" is further back and more rounded than the English "ou in soup", or even
that it's different sound from the "u". Then again, some people do seem to be able to
pick up the sound system accurately just by listening and don't have to study it
extensively like I do. But for the rest of us, my recommendation is to take
pronunciation seriously from the start and find a resource that teaches the sound
system properly and accurately, explaining the positions of the tongue, lips, etc., and
continue to keep it a focus as you learn.


I agree with this point to a certain extent.
I think that the pronunciation guides (in English, anyway) are written under the assumption that the reader speaks English with no accent. Or, if you want to be technical, with a "Midwest American" accent, which is how I speak. I usually find in the texts that I purchase that the pronunciation guides are actually quite accurate, and I only check my pronunciation against recordings because I'm a perfectionist.
Almost 100% of the time I find that my pronunciation is spot on, and I worried myself for nothing. I had that with Spanish in high school, with Japanese and Finnish later, and now with Russian I have yet to have to correct my pronunciation. I'm sure I will later, but if my past experiences are repeated, I shouldn't have to very frequently.
This could be a combination of my lack of an accent in English and my musical ear, however.
I have known plenty of people who have had issues with pronunciation guides, however, and would be very interested to hear specifics on why this is, simply because, quite frankly, I don't entirely understand it, having never really had that problem. Is it really just differences in accent or dialect? Or perhaps the lack of an ability to hear something and then imitate it without much practice? Maybe I'm getting too technical for this thread regarding this matter, but I really am curious.

Edited by Dreadslinger on 07 July 2011 at 4:44am
1 person has voted this message useful



Jeffers
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 4844 days ago
2151 posts - 3960 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German

 
 Message 53 of 59
07 July 2011 at 8:16am | IP Logged 
Dreadslinger wrote:

I think that the pronunciation guides (in English, anyway) are written under the assumption that the reader speaks English with no accent. Or, if you want to be technical, with a "Midwest American" accent, which is how I speak.


Midwesterners often say they have no accent. So do northwesterners (e.g. Seattle) and Canadians. Funny thing is, they all sound different to each other.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you sound funny to the rest of the English speaking world. That's not an insult, as the rest of them sound funny to you. That's just the fun of language.
2 persons have voted this message useful



Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
Joined 4991 days ago
2096 posts - 2972 votes 
Speaks: Russian*

 
 Message 54 of 59
07 July 2011 at 9:18am | IP Logged 
garyb wrote:
Icaria909 wrote:
1. Never trust pronunciation guides that come with
courses. It is
far better to listen to
the cds with a course and to jot down notes about how you think a letter or letter
combination sounds than to constantly refer to the "pronunciation chart." From Russian
to
French, doing this has always vastly improved my pronunciation.


I agree. Especially if the guides claim that certain sounds are the same as English
sounds, for example "like the a in father" or "the ou in soup", as often they're not
exactly the same, and even in English these sounds can be different depending on
accent. These analogies can be useful as long as they point out that it's similar and
explain the differences, but they generally don't. Not teaching pronunciation well is
the weak point of pretty much every course I've ever come across.

However, just figuring it out by listening has never worked for me either: if you're
not aware of the differences, it's hard to pick them out by ear and tell that, say, the
French "ou" is further back and more rounded than the English "ou in soup", or even
that it's different sound from the "u". Then again, some people do seem to be able to
pick up the sound system accurately just by listening and don't have to study it
extensively like I do. But for the rest of us, my recommendation is to take
pronunciation seriously from the start and find a resource that teaches the sound
system properly and accurately, explaining the positions of the tongue, lips, etc., and
continue to keep it a focus as you learn.

Sometimes it's not a disaster. But sometimes texbooks just replace one sound by
another. For example, I was shocked when found out that many Russian books teach to
pronounce пя like pya, while pya is spelled пья actually.
1 person has voted this message useful



garyb
Triglot
Senior Member
ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5142 days ago
1468 posts - 2413 votes 
Speaks: English*, Italian, French
Studies: Spanish

 
 Message 55 of 59
07 July 2011 at 1:53pm | IP Logged 
Dreadslinger wrote:

I agree with this point to a certain extent.
I think that the pronunciation guides (in English, anyway) are written under the assumption that the reader speaks English with no accent. Or, if you want to be technical, with a "Midwest American" accent, which is how I speak. I usually find in the texts that I purchase that the pronunciation guides are actually quite accurate, and I only check my pronunciation against recordings because I'm a perfectionist.
Almost 100% of the time I find that my pronunciation is spot on, and I worried myself for nothing. I had that with Spanish in high school, with Japanese and Finnish later, and now with Russian I have yet to have to correct my pronunciation. I'm sure I will later, but if my past experiences are repeated, I shouldn't have to very frequently.
This could be a combination of my lack of an accent in English and my musical ear, however.
I have known plenty of people who have had issues with pronunciation guides, however, and would be very interested to hear specifics on why this is, simply because, quite frankly, I don't entirely understand it, having never really had that problem. Is it really just differences in accent or dialect? Or perhaps the lack of an ability to hear something and then imitate it without much practice? Maybe I'm getting too technical for this thread regarding this matter, but I really am curious.


You seem to be one of the people I talked about who picks up pronunciation easily - that's great, make the most of it! I'm not, so I have to understand everything exactly and practise lots, and even after that I still often struggle.

Anyway as an example that seems fairly typical of what you find in textbooks which I think illustrates my point fairly well - a typical French pronunciation guide.

Vowels:
"a" as in "father" - there's been a whole debate about this on here before. I pronounce "father" with an [a], but in other accents it's more of an [æ] or apparently even an [ɔ] as in "bother" (or maybe the o in bother is more like an a for these speakers, I have no idea)
"e" like the a in about - not exactly, it's more rounded.
"é" like "ay" as in "say" - not if you're one of the majority of native English speakers who pronounce "ay" as a diphthong.
"i" and "y" like in "feed" - the English sound is a long vowel, but the French generally isn't.
"ou" like the "oo" in "food" - nope, the French "ou" is further back and more rounded, like I said in my last post. This wouldn't be such an issue if it wasn't for the fact that the English sound is somewhat in between the "ou" and "u" in French so could be misheard as either.
"u" - a surprisingly good explanation for once! Often they just say it's "like the u in cute but not quite" or something along these lines
Also doesn't mention that all the vowels in French are a bit more... extreme?... than in English; what I mean is that a closed back rounded vowel in French is more closed, more back, and more rounded than the equivalent in English, etc..

Consonants:
"d" as in "death" - correct as it's a dental "d" (at least for me), however your average English speaker isn't even aware that some "d"s are different from others in English.
"h" usually silent - I think you mean "always silent".
"l" - same problem as "d"
"n" - same problem as "d" and "l"
"p" - no mention of the lack of aspiration in French.
"r" - pretty crappy and meaningless explanation, but at least they emphasise that it's not an English "r". (although this is a sound that even I managed to pick up accurately just from listening!)
"t" - same problem as "d", "l", and "n"

Diphthongs (note that most of these aren't actually diphthongs, and the ones at the end aren't even vowel sounds!)
"a" like "i as in fight" - I've been learning French for too long and I've never come across this, have I missed something?
"ail" like "i as in fight" - certainly not the way I say "fight" ([aj] vs [əi])
"an" - the explanation sounds more like a French "in". And pointing out the difference between this sound and "on" wouldn't have gone amiss.
"eu" - worst explanation so far. They could have just said it's a rounded [e], much simpler.
"œ" - explanation is good enough although relative to the previous crappy one
"er", "ez" - and same problem as "é"
"oi", "oin", "oui", etc. - the [w] in French is more rounded than English
"gn" like in "canyon" - doesn't make it clear that this is a palatal n, rather than a separate [n] and [y] as we say it in English. Similar issue to what Марк just described with пя in Russian.
"ll" like "l" - except, you know, all these times when it's [y]. I realise that pointing out every exception to the rules would be ridiculous, but this one is common enough to merit inclusion.

Guides like this don't point out a lot of important differences between sounds that seem similar, and probably the same to the untrained ear, in English and French but are actually different enough to prevent understanding. That's my problem; I feel strongly about this because I learned the hard way and had to completely re-learn pronunciation quite far into the learning process thanks to a combination of school and reading guides like this.

And then there's this... Words cannot justify the sheer incorrectness. "â is like the aw in raw"... what?
2 persons have voted this message useful



Dreadslinger
Newbie
United States
Joined 4828 days ago
18 posts - 30 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 56 of 59
07 July 2011 at 6:59pm | IP Logged 
Thank you for the answer, garyb! That was actually very enlightening. Honestly, I've never seen a course that describes pronunciation (of vowels in particular) that... I don't know, lazily? In the texts I've read there is always some extra explanation. For Finnish in particular, I remember that the book I was studying spent three whole chapters covering the nuances of pronunciation. I think you're probably correct in that I have a natural ability for pronunciation, but I think I must also have gotten lucky in my finding of textbooks which expand further on the rules.

Jeffers wrote:
Dreadslinger wrote:

I think that the pronunciation guides (in English, anyway) are written under the assumption that the reader speaks English with no accent. Or, if you want to be technical, with a "Midwest American" accent, which is how I speak.


Midwesterners often say they have no accent. So do northwesterners (e.g. Seattle) and Canadians. Funny thing is, they all sound different to each other.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you sound funny to the rest of the English speaking world. That's not an insult, as the rest of them sound funny to you. That's just the fun of language.


And no worries. No bubble to burst. I understand that there is no such thing as "no accent" in any language, anywhere. That's why I specified: "...if you want to be technical, with a 'Midwest American' accent..." I realize I used the term "lack of an accent" again later in that post. I merely said it in the interest of expedience, and the hope that my point wouldn't be missed.
Also, I've noticed that quite a few people from this area of the country who do speak more than one language often receive compliments from native speakers on their accents in said language. So, while of course it is an accent, and not really a lack of one, perhaps it is (in part, at least) said accent which enables the understanding/interpretation of pronunciation guides written in English. This is, of course, merely speculation, but I think it makes a certain amount of sense.
I must say, however, I've never met a Canadian (from near my area, anyway) who claimed to have "no accent". lol

EDIT: Considering the length of my posts, I must admit that my usage of the phrase "in the interest of expedience" is amusing. lol

Edited by Dreadslinger on 07 July 2011 at 7:03pm


1 person has voted this message useful



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