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Fluent in 3 months method? | ||
Tags: Fluency | Learning Technique/Method | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5701 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes  Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 17 of 42 24 June 2011 at 4:20am | IP Logged | |||||
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I would like to hear more about what people who are not Benny have to say about their own experiences with his methods. Edited by Bao on 24 June 2011 at 4:20am 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Po-ru Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5415 days ago 173 posts - 235 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: Korean, Spanish, Norwegian, Mandarin, French | Message 18 of 42 24 June 2011 at 7:19am | IP Logged | |||||
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I have one question for Benny or for anyone about the method. What are the realistic and
possible accomplishments after just 3 months? I don't quite see how one can become to anything more than an intermediate level in just 3 months, especially without a strong syntactic and lexical comprehension of the language before starting. Not to mention the difficulties which can arise when one factors in the writing system. Though I would love to try this with a language such as Urdu or Tibetan which are well outside my comfort zone and see how far I can get with it. Why I question this method is because I am wondering if speaking the language in this sense somehow makes up for the lack of input and grammatical study. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Lucky Charms Diglot Senior Member Japan lapacifica.net Joined 6884 days ago 752 posts - 1711 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: German, Spanish | Message 19 of 42 24 June 2011 at 10:05am | IP Logged | |||||
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I've been following Benny's blog for probably about a year, and I have also purchased his Language Hacking Guide.
His blog reminds me a lot of Barry Farber's How to Learn Any Language, in that it's not a language learning method so much as a message that "yes, It's possible to learn a foreign language! You don't have to be gifted, and you don't have to torture yourself for years. Learning a language is fulfilling and fun, and possible for anyone. Quit putting it on a pedestal and telling yourself someday." The target readership is those who have always wanted to learn a language but never thought they could, those who think the only way to fluency is immersion in the foreign country or many years at a university, those who are holding themselves back with excuses, etc. (In other words, not most of us on this forum who are already interested in foreign languages for their own sake and already know it's possible, and are more interested in finding the most efficient way to do so.) It's more about the attitude toward foreign languages than anything else. In fact, it's hard to pinpoint exactly what his "methods" are, because he's not really pitching a method. He does point out that IF your main goal is to speak (and he acknowledges this isn't the case for everybody) then you should speak as much as possible, and that other activities such as reading and grammar study will only help you toward that goal indirectly but will not replace speaking practice. And he gives some tips ("hacks") to help people out with this who don't know where to start, but not in a way that's comprehensive enough to be called a "method". Personally, I have problems with shyness, even though communicating with native speakers and making new friends in my target language is perhaps my greatest motivation to study, so I've found Benny's insights and attitude very eye-opening. For example, I've come to realize that although I do enjoy studying grammar, much of my "I can't start looking for language partners yet, because I still haven't conquered the subjunctive" or "I don't have enough vocab yet, and whatever would I do if this topic comes up and I'm not able to talk about it?" kinds of rationalizations were rather silly and were holding me back from achieving my goals. I enjoy reading about his experiences with native speakers, because it makes me feel like it's possible for me, too. Another example is that I was introduced to the idea of hosting CouchSurfers to practice my target language when I'm not able to travel. Finally, I've learned much from his positive approach to "difficult" languages and linguistic features. These are the kind of things he shares on his blog, rather than any particular study method. And while it's already been pointed out, I'd like to add that the title of his blog is meant as "I'm a traveller whose goal is to become fluent in the local language within 3 months, follow me to see if I can do it" rather than "I'm going to teach you how to be fluent in 3 months", and this becomes apparent after reading even just a little of his site. I don't think he was ever trying to mislead anyone. Besides, if I'm correct, the name was chosen long before he had any plans to market a product on there. According to him, he was always asked the same questions during his travels whenever he explained his "missions" to someone, and this is what prompted him to write a personal travel blog about it, without ever expecting it to get big or to be able to make money off it. It sounds plausible enough for me. Edited by Lucky Charms on 24 June 2011 at 10:28am 16 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Lucky Charms Diglot Senior Member Japan lapacifica.net Joined 6884 days ago 752 posts - 1711 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: German, Spanish | Message 20 of 42 24 June 2011 at 10:27am | IP Logged | |||||
I think the reason this seems impossible to many people is because they are interpreting "fluent" as "at an advanced level", whereas Benny seems to interpret it literally as "speaking fluidly", i.e. comfortably without breaking the flow of the conversation (you can find his official definition on his blog). This is a much easier goal and is quite separate from the beginner-intermediate-advanced spectrum: you can be advanced in a language without being able to speak it with ease, and on the other hand, you can be a relative beginner in the language and still speak with ease and fluidity (by incorporating circumlocation and gestures when you need to, and by ignoring many of the intricacies of grammar - at least for the time being, as he does eventually fine-tune his grammar and SRS vocab and has apparently reached a high level of accuracy in a few of his languages.) I think the place where he ends up at 3 months is nowhere near where he recommends you should stay for the rest of your life, but is enough to be called "spoken fluency". Personally, I began studying Spanish last month for the 6WC, and am near this point now; I feel very sure that if I had prioritized speaking above all else the way Benny does, and forced myself to speak Spanish every day, I would have reached his definition of "spoken fluency" already by now (which seems like a no-brainer, and that's the point: he's offering a wakeup call rather than some secret to success). By the way, I don't mean to come off as Benny's fangirl or anything :) I don't even agree with everything he writes; I just think many of the criticisms levelled against him are unfair, and are mostly by those who have never read his blog, so I'm happy to explain what I can here. Edited by Lucky Charms on 24 June 2011 at 10:40am 9 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Splog Diglot Senior Member Czech Republic anthonylauder.c Joined 5604 days ago 1062 posts - 3263 votes Speaks: English*, Czech Studies: Mandarin | Message 21 of 42 24 June 2011 at 10:41am | IP Logged | |||||
I have Benny's book, and often read his website. From both of these, one thing has really made a tremendous improvement to my active language ability. Benny keeps pointing out that we are often scared to start speaking because we will make fools of ourselves. So, we keep delaying it until we feel we are finally ready. Benny sums this up nicely as "if you keep waiting until you are ready, you will never be ready". This continual message really got me speaking more. Of course, I did make a fool of myself a few times, but three things came from it: 1: After a while, I didn't mind making a fool of myself. I was able to accept I wouldn't be perfect, and could still communicate. 2: Progress was rapid. Speaking activates passive vocabulary. After a couple of months of daily talking I no longer felt that the words were trapped inside me, or on the tip of my tongue. 3: It improved my studying. Previously, much of my language study had been a little like cramming for tests - where I saw it as facts to memorise. Now, I could readily visualise lots of conversations I had already had, and see where new things I learn could have helped with those conversations. This made my language learning more alive. One important point I would like to bring up (and I have mentioned this to Benny before, so I hope he doesn't mind) is that people often talk about Input vs Output. There are arguments about whether you should primarily focus on Reading and Listening (Input) or Talking and Writing (Output). From this perspective, Benny could be seen as in the Output camp. However, I don't think that is correct. Real conversations are not about Output (you can just create a monologue talking to a webcam for that). Rather, conversations are about an ongoing flow between people. Your output is their input, and vice versa. Input and output are not separate activities; they are part of the conversational whole. More importantly, the input and output are mutually relevant, so that they reinforce each other by providing constant feedback and adjustment. It is this real-time feedback loop that you can only get from conversations that makes all the difference, and has proven to me to be the best method in moving from passive to active language abilities. 13 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6638 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 22 of 42 24 June 2011 at 11:22am | IP Logged | |||||
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Benny's study technique is closely tied to an urban nomadic lifestyle, and my guess is that most of those who have this lifestyle find it too hard to learn new languages all the time so they just give up and stick to English (as a native or second language speaker). Those who settle permanently abroad are more likely to do as he does, but without the serial learner perspective. So the number of true 'Bennies' can't be that high.
What does he do then? I have read some of his discussions with Steve Kauffmann and others, and my impression is that they aren't speaking about the same situation. Benny has chosen to plunge into a foreign society, and he has set himself the task to learn the local language fast. OK, then it is logical to go for the things that are useful here and now in a conversation, and that is not an immense vocabulary or acribic correctness in grammar. The main question is whether he uses in dictionaries and grammars to solve problems he meets during the day - some of his remarks seem to indicate that he isn't fanatical about learning only from conversations and native materials, but that's probably where there can be some leeway for different approaches (and I would certainly use those sources if I were in his situation). But we can't all live that kind of nomadic life, and we can't all have (or adopt) his extemely extrovert style. So with a limited time in the company of native speakers preparation is the solution, and preparation means input, dictionaries and grammars (or some other way to learn grammar if you don't like grammars, like Steve Kauffmann). This isn't the same thing as advocating a silent period, but the tendency is clearly there. Personally I use thinking silently as a surrogate for actual communication, and making videos and writing are ways to give yourself something to think about. But thinking silently is at least more active than just reading stuff. OK, a person from this last camp has arrived in a foreign place on holiday. What happens? If I had Benny's personality I would find places to talk, the more the better. But I don't like bars and couch surfing isn't my thing, so I visit museums, zoos, parks and libraries instead, which aren't really meant as meeting places. So I certainly speak less than Benny measured in hours, but instead all the things I hear and see in the local language around me makes it possible to keep my inner monologue running in the local language (but only because I have prepared for it, obviously). The conversations I do strike up are then mainly something that reinforces that inner monologue. When you read the current thread about Myer-Briggs personality types then it is very striking that introverts are in the majority here, and people living at home in their own country are also in the majority. So most members can just read about his exploits, they can't try them out themselves. PS: I do see Benny in the output camp, even if he also gets input. You can't make output in a foreign language without some input, but you can focus almost entirely on input if that's what you want. So the two opposing camps aren't pure Input versus pure Output, but rather Input versus Input+Output Edited by Iversen on 24 June 2011 at 12:13pm 11 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 23 of 42 24 June 2011 at 12:25pm | IP Logged | |||||
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As happens quite often here, it seems to me that this discussion is a tempest in a teapot. What exactly is the problem? Aside from that eternally irritating issue of the definition of fluency, in my opinion, the real subject under discussion is how much can one learn to speak--literally interact orally with natives--a target language in three months. A little, quite a bit or a lot? The variables are so many that it seems ridiculous to say that one can become "fluent" in three months. I personally prefer to say that in an immersion setting and with access to a native language coach or guide, one can learn a lot--let's say to a CEFR speaking A2 or even a B1-- in three months.
I like Benny's approach because it cuts quickly to the chase and distills the essence of learning a language for the purpose of actually using it with people. It's not rocket science; it's plain common sense. To tell the truth, I'm more intrigued by the fact that so many people never really learn a language well even though they are exposed to it daily and could, if they so desired, use it. 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5946 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 24 of 42 24 June 2011 at 1:18pm | IP Logged | |||||
Except that from his descriptions of himself, Benny doesn't seem like an extrovert at all. The difference between an extrovert and an introvert isn't about chatting in a pub vs spending an afternoon in the library. The reason introverts tend not to be sociable is because our brains stimulate themselves, so we don't need as much social contact. An extrovert's mental stimulation, on the other hand, comes mostly from social contact. Benny's success in learning is probably down to his extreme introversion. Like you and me, his brain doesn't stop thinking about language when he puts his books away or walks away from a conversation -- inside he's still chattering away, subconsciously replaying and re-examining the language he's just been exposed to. So perhaps it's the extroverts who would have the real trouble following his advice.
Pure output is rare, but it exists. The Michel Thomas course is the only example I can think of (even drill books tend to mix translation (output) with target language true-or-false or fill-in-the-blanks exercises). 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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