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The Michel Thomas Method? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Julie Heptaglot Senior Member PolandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6902 days ago 1251 posts - 1733 votes  5 sounds Speaks: Polish*, EnglishB2, GermanC2, SpanishB2, Dutch, Swedish, French | Message 9 of 30 27 July 2012 at 11:53pm | IP Logged | ||
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I used MT courses for French (foundation, advanced and language builder, if I remember
correctly - haven't finished this one). It is one of the original courses and it's true that Michel's pronunciation is annoying, and so are the students. However, the course did literally wonders to my French, especially to my speaking. The course introduces quite complex grammar structures. You learn step by step: the sentences are altered and extended. It is quite different from my own learning style (I usually want to get a big picture and study grammar on my own, plus I am a visual learner) but somehow it really helped where other methods didn't work. Most importantly, the course is very time- efficient, and wasn't devastating to my French pronunciation (as it wasn't the first course I used to learn French, and I supplemented it with other methods anyway). 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Wulfgar Senior Member United States Joined 4670 days ago 404 posts - 791 votes Speaks: English* | Message 10 of 30 28 July 2012 at 6:48am | IP Logged | ||
I'll state the obvious - it makes no sense to compare these programs, as they are, or should be, used for completely different things. MT is a quick overview of grammar. Assimil is grammar, vocabulary, reading and listening that is supposed to be enough for B2. MT is sort of unique; there are really only a handful of MT wannabe programs out there that would make sense to compare it to. On the other hand, Assimil can be compared to any of the big "complete" courses for a given language. As far a Assimil getting someone to B2, or even B1, I disagree. Grammar, yes. Vocabulary, maybe B1. Listening and reading, maybe A2. Conversation - 0. As for me and Assimil Russian, the way grammar was presented was so disorganized and poorly explained I had to use a lot of other resources to get to what I consider B1. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6596 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 11 of 30 28 July 2012 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | ||
If you bother to shadow it'll be B1, or as good as your writing if you're using other resources. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Elexi Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5564 days ago 938 posts - 1840 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 12 of 30 28 July 2012 at 1:41pm | IP Logged | ||
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It seems to me that we, like publishers, seemingly pluck CEFR grades out of the sky
based on relatively subjective impressions without reference to what the CEFR grades actually require a student to master. For example - take grammar. Here is a list of grammatical rules that one provider of courses states is required to master B2 for French (you can look at lower levels by changing the b2 to a1, etc) http://www.cavilamenligne.com/activites-en-ligne/niveau-b2-g rammaire Some of those rules/concepts (e.g. le futur antérieur) are not covered in New French With Ease (supposedly B2). One of the great problems with the CEFR 'can do' charts is that they are so vague that publishers can play fast and loose with them, just as we do. At the end of the day, its the CEFR grades are an exam standard and it is best to look at a real syllabus than to guess around publishers marketing puff. Furthermore, not every language learning method fits into the way the CEFR standards envisage language learning to be - take the Michel Thomas Method - In its original form it has no real listening comprehension (e.g. basic A1 requires exercises like what platform does the train leave from, what did the shop keeper say the price of the 5 items were), no written exercises (e.g. A1 requires one to write a postcard), fails to teach basic functional vocabulary (again with A1 - the weather, the time, how to order food and drink, etc) and clearly has no reading comprehension because it is audio only. So to ask 'what level does it take you' to with reference to the CEFR scales is a pretty useless question as it doesn't take you, on its own, anywhere in relation to those scales. However, for me at least, I would say the 20 odd hours it takes me to master a Michel Thomas Foundation and Advanced course (assuming pausing and some repetition of parts is included in the time) I would have grasped more of the language than 20 hours of Assimil. That is not to knock Assimil - I probably have two Assimil courses on the go at any one time and love the method. However, the MT courses serve (again for me at least) to 'activate' language early on so that I can follow a programme of self study. 8 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6596 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 13 of 30 28 July 2012 at 3:54pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yeah but many say they need to repeat the MT courses several times. what about 60h of MT, the same material 3x, vs 60h of Assimil?
I think the lists of required grammar points are a bit silly. That's like saying you're allowed to make this kind of mistakes but not that one, which puts learners at a disadvantage, depending on their native language. A mistake is always a mistake. (The whole French exam thing seems ridiculously difficult to me. A presentation on an advanced topic? How many people are able to make one in their native language? I'm strongly opposed to learning any information *because* you're supposed to be able to speak on this or that topic. The only exception is cultural information.) 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| atama warui Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 4700 days ago 594 posts - 985 votes Speaks: German*, English, Japanese | Message 14 of 30 28 July 2012 at 5:06pm | IP Logged | ||
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Assimil will not take you to B2 by a faaaaaaar stretch.
B1 may be possible if you do additional (unintended) stuff. But then we aren't talking about "the Assimil course" anymore. Assimil has some raw resources usable with other methods (like Shadowing), but the same could be said for a lot of instruction material. I'm not a big fan of Assimil. It's old, it's dusty and modern languages evolve fast. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6596 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 15 of 30 28 July 2012 at 5:40pm | IP Logged | ||
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If it's old and dusty what do you say about FSI? :D
It depends on the language I guess... those I've used are fine. Assimil's high quality audio is only comparable to Pimsleur, but you'd have to do tons of editing with the latter while Assimil is L2-only. Any course needs supplemental materials to get you anywhere. The thing about Assimil is that it mostly just requires native materials, like any other course does. It doesn't necessarily require using another language course. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Elexi Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5564 days ago 938 posts - 1840 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 16 of 30 28 July 2012 at 6:36pm | IP Logged | ||
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I question whether one can get to B2 by a self teaching course or even a series of
courses alone. By that I mean, if you entered an exam room or got off a plane in the country of your chosen language could you pass for a B2 level? I think one can probably get to A2 just by studying hard but I think that is the limit, beyond that you need contact hours with native speakers, or at least teachers/students who have experience speaking the language with natives. That's my view and my experience - but I am happy to be wrong. Edited by Elexi on 28 July 2012 at 8:24pm 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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