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Not wired for languages? | ||
Tags: Talent | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5532 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes  Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 9 of 57 14 December 2012 at 4:13am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Where I grew up, disagreeing was considered good manners, because it leads to interesting conversations. So nothing puts a smile on my face like a good, civilized disagreement. Thank you. :-) I will concede that talent exists. Some things came very easy for me in school. But there are other things I've never had any natural aptitude for. For example, as the saying goes, I couldn't carry a tune if you gave me a paper bag. I'm not actually tone deaf—I can hear the notes. But if you ask me to sing a scale, I'm probably going to mess it up. My wife, on the other hand, has always had a lovely singing voice, and she claims that it's pretty much natural. But I'm pretty sure that if spent as much time singing as I do studying French, I would get a lot better. For example, if I met with a good teacher once a week and practiced singing an hour a day for a year, I could learn to carry a tune. I mean, I wouldn't be amazing, be I'd be really surprised if I couldn't be at least passably competent. As for foreign languages, the US Foreign Service Institute gives incoming students the aptitude tests, and here's what they say:
Elsewhere, the FSI says the aptitude helps the most when people study a related language in an intensive program, and when the goal is to reach ILR 3 (about CEFRL C1, I think). But when people go beyond that to ILR 4 and near-native levels, here's what some FSI reachers have to say:
To expand on my Appalachian Trail metaphor, sure, some people are in good shape, some people are couch potatoes, and some people are simply incapable of walking any distance at all. But lots of unlikely people manage to hike the trail—grandmothers, people who've always been bad at sports, and so on. Tons of good athletes start every year, and give up part way through. Meanwhile, some people who panted and wheezed and ached through their first 500 miles are striding up and down mountains. So maybe the programmer that beano mentioned is genuinely bad at languages. But I bet if he slugged it out all the way through Assimil or FSI, he'd be able to carry on a conversation. Lack of talent is not an insurmountable obstacle if you really want something, and I hate to hear it used as an excuse. Better to say, "Singing didn't come easy, and it's not a priority for me. So I'm not going to put in the hours." 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Tsopivo Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4471 days ago 258 posts - 411 votes Speaks: French*, English Studies: Esperanto | Message 10 of 57 14 December 2012 at 4:47am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I entirely agree with emk there. "Talent" or "natural aptitude" exists and comes into play for language learning - and since we are not talking about newborn babies, education, acquired aptitude, life experience... will also come into play. But I do not think that an average person with no impairment or health issue can lack "language learning talent" to the point were they could not learn one.
On a side note, since you mentionned that you found the story about your American friend intesresting, with which I agree, it is a phenomenon that has actually been looked into by sociologists and is called the Pygmalion effect. The reverse can also work and is known as the Golem effect. However, I do not see how this support your point. On the contrary, this tends to show that it is not a lack of innate abilities that was preventing those students to succeed but may be, in part, the belief that they could not. Edited by Tsopivo on 14 December 2012 at 4:48am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| zerrubabbel Senior Member United States Joined 4600 days ago 232 posts - 287 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Mandarin | Message 11 of 57 14 December 2012 at 6:09am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Im not sure if Im ready to believe that natural aptitude exists or not... everything Ive ever been called talented in
wether it be in playing my trumpet, playing with a yoyo, the CP Statistics class I took, or most recently, in languages, have all been things I've taken an interest in, and from there I think ive naturally gone into the state of mind that is favorable for growing skill in that activity conversely, I dont consider myself good at say working on cars, writing essays, or drawing... but then these are not things im particularly interested in, or things I like enough to spend a fair amount of time in... I think what it boils down to is having the right motivation, and the most likely place to get that motivation is from interest and curiosity 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5334 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 12 of 57 14 December 2012 at 7:13am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Actually I don't think we have much of a disagreement here. We all agree that talent will make the journey
easier, and we all agree that regardless of talent there is a journey to make which takes time and effort. Another more philosophical question is of course - is it still talent if it changes over time? When I was a kid, learning languages was like a short walk around the corner, now learning languages is like running marathon with a millstone around my neck (if you can imagine that you still have fun while doing that :-) . Where once my brain was a new computer with an empty hard drive and I had oceans of time, it is now a full hard drive full of virus, and I have to sneak down to the utility room to fold clothes to get any studying done while I do that. So was I talented then and untalented now? Just to shoot my own arguments from the previous post in the foot :-) 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| justonelanguage Diglot Groupie United States Joined 4462 days ago 98 posts - 128 votes Speaks: English, Spanish | Message 13 of 57 14 December 2012 at 8:17am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I'm sorry, but I have to go against the grain and say (in my biased opinion) that talent plays a large part in language attainment, just like anything else.
I had a friend in college that literally worked in a Mexican restaurant for a summer and had a solid command of the grammar and an excellent accent. (He hadn't taken a Spanish class, I believe) Conversely, I had classmates and friends that had extensive practice and exposure to Spanish and just couldn't get the grammar, conjugations, and accent down. Most of us are around the middle of the bell curve for talent (language, sports, academic subjects) and I do believe that hard work can overcome a lack of talent. However, if somebody does something in X hours and I need 1.5X hours, and all other variables are constant, he has more of a knack for it. QUOTE=emk]
Where I grew up, disagreeing was considered good manners, because it leads to interesting conversations. So nothing puts a smile on my face like a good, civilized disagreement. Thank you. :-) I will concede that talent exists. Some things came very easy for me in school. But there are other things I've never had any natural aptitude for. For example, as the saying goes, I couldn't carry a tune if you gave me a paper bag. I'm not actually tone deaf—I can hear the notes. But if you ask me to sing a scale, I'm probably going to mess it up. My wife, on the other hand, has always had a lovely singing voice, and she claims that it's pretty much natural. But I'm pretty sure that if spent as much time singing as I do studying French, I would get a lot better. For example, if I met with a good teacher once a week and practiced singing an hour a day for a year, I could learn to carry a tune. I mean, I wouldn't be amazing, be I'd be really surprised if I couldn't be at least passably competent. As for foreign languages, the US Foreign Service Institute gives incoming students the aptitude tests, and here's what they say:
Elsewhere, the FSI says the aptitude helps the most when people study a related language in an intensive program, and when the goal is to reach ILR 3 (about CEFRL C1, I think). But when people go beyond that to ILR 4 and near-native levels, here's what some FSI reachers have to say:
To expand on my Appalachian Trail metaphor, sure, some people are in good shape, some people are couch potatoes, and some people are simply incapable of walking any distance at all. But lots of unlikely people manage to hike the trail—grandmothers, people who've always been bad at sports, and so on. Tons of good athletes start every year, and give up part way through. Meanwhile, some people who panted and wheezed and ached through their first 500 miles are striding up and down mountains. So maybe the programmer that beano mentioned is genuinely bad at languages. But I bet if he slugged it out all the way through Assimil or FSI, he'd be able to carry on a conversation. Lack of talent is not an insurmountable obstacle if you really want something, and I hate to hear it used as an excuse. Better to say, "Singing didn't come easy, and it's not a priority for me. So I'm not going to put in the hours."[/QUOTE] 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Ogrim Heptaglot Senior Member France Joined 4639 days ago 991 posts - 1896 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian | Message 14 of 57 14 December 2012 at 9:22am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Very interesting discussion.
Personally I believe that the cause is a very complex set of factors, and for me motivation is just as important as talent. Solfrid Cristin says she could not become a maths professor for a million dollars. Why is that? I think a person who is capable of learning 6 or 7 languages would be able to learn advanced mathematics as well, but if the interest and motivation is not there, that person will simply not do it. Personally I could never be an engineer or natural scientist. I have never been motivated or interested in science subjects. It does not mean that I could not grasp it, and I got decent marks, but when we did physics, chemistry and geography in school I was utterly bored, with the notable exception of political geography, where we learned about countries, capitals, inhabitants, official languages and other interesting facts. emk, I like your Appalachian Trail metaphor, but I think it has one flaw. Walking is a relatively simple activity for a physically healthy person. You do it more or less automatically and it does not require a huge intellectual effort. Learning a foreign language is a lot more complex in terms of brain activity. So for me the hole talent vs. hard work debate really boils down to the question: Are some people's brain better wired for learning languages? To that I would probably answer yes. However, I refuse to believe that some people's brains are absolutely not wired to learn a foreign language. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5982 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 15 of 57 14 December 2012 at 9:34am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I tried doing this with my husband. An intelligent man who has no trouble with computer programming and yet is convinced he has "no talent" for language. Well, the problem is that once he realised what was going on, the shutters closed in his mind and he just wasn't interested, he just got cross with me and said he couldn't do it. Well, if someone tried to take me, who has 'no talent' for running, out for an 'easy' jog, I guess I'd get quite cross too. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| DaraghM Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 6151 days ago 1947 posts - 2923 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Russian, Hungarian | Message 16 of 57 14 December 2012 at 10:37am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I was the kid in school who didn't have a talent for languages. I was very good at English, but French alluded me. I sailed through maths without any difficulties. Even after six years schooling, my spoken French was just behind my Spanish. My small ability in Spanish was due to six months living in Spain when I was twelve. I took it as a given that I couldn't learn another language, as I was the engineer\scientist type. It wasn't until years later, that I realised the problem wasn't my ability, but my approach. I assumed a language was like any other subject in school, and could be learnt like any other subject. This meant I tried to learn the rules, random bits of vocabulary, as if they were facts, like the GDP of a country. I was engaging the completely wrong part of my brain.
It seems obvious to us here, but a language is primarily about speaking and listening. This means for self-study, listening to a a lot of comprehensible input. The vast majority of my study now is listening. Am I a brilliant language learner now ? No. Others with a talent will pick up the sounds, grammar and vocabulary quicker than me. Perhaps, I'm still the slowest to pick these things up. However, what I do possess is determination, and an ability to see that Appalachian trail to the end. Edited by DaraghM on 14 December 2012 at 12:28pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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