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The Sentence Method | ||
Tags: 10000 sentences | Flash cards | Learning Technique/Method | Vocabulary learning | Japanese | German | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Journeyer Triglot Senior Member United States tristan85.blogspot.c Joined 6803 days ago 946 posts - 1110 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, German Studies: Sign Language | Message 1 of 27 03 April 2007 at 5:37pm | IP Logged | ||
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I've been reading on a few websites, including in comments here, that one effective way to learn grammar is by learning sentences instead of grammar.
It's been suggested that one should learn a sentence first, and then go back and learn the grammar later. I guess, after enough example sentences, one starts to develope an innate feel for what is right, seeing patterns and so forth, similar to how native speakers learn their first language, it seems. I'm trying to do this with Mnemosyne with some aspects of German, such as the passive, and so forth, in hopes of learning the grammar quicker, and more "naturally". However, the catch is with me, I've already studied through my own rather intensive (or self-inflicted, however one wants to look at it :-) ) self-studies a good amount of German grammar, so the sentence method to me isn't showing me stuff that's entirely new. I'm curious if there is anyone out there doing it though, and how they go about doing it. This is what I do to learn grammar: I study a chapter from my grammar book, and then three original example sentences to practice the rule stated. By the end of the course, I generally don't recall everything, which is where I think using example sentences reviewed on flashcards will come in handy ("Ah yes, 'Den Kindern wurdE gratuliert', not wurdEN!" etc...) Two languages I really want to get cracking on are French and Japanese. With French, I don't see too many difficulties because I've learned some of the language in the past, and have a knowledge of Spanish. But I was looking through my Japanese grammar, which is language I have next to no experience with, and I was at a loss as to how I should even begin going about this process. It is a reference grammar I was looking at, and so broken down into categories, but even at that I felt confused just looking at the rules and then reading the examples, because I didn't see how I could learn the grammar rule from a completely alien sentence with no actual "textbook" study of the grammar. Surely the patterns are there, and I would see them after studying them, but I'm not sure I would see them with this sentence method. I still have to take a closer looks at the websites that suggested them (including a site about learning Japanese) but I wanted to see if anyone here had first hand, down-to-earth accounts about it. I am using the sentence method to learn vocab, however, and I find that very helpful to use a context to help me learn the words. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Farley Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 7027 days ago 681 posts - 739 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, GermanB1, French Studies: Spanish | Message 2 of 27 03 April 2007 at 9:11pm | IP Logged | ||
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What to card or what not card?
I suppose there is an art to it all. Based on what I have read you record the phrases from dialogs and example sentences. The example sentences can come from a textbook/ grammar book, or a dictionary. I’ve had some experience with using this method, with a few qualifications. When I was learning German I read a couple of books cover the cover numerous times. They included a grammar guide, a vocabulary book, a couple of phrase books, and a book of verb conjugations. Every one of them had sample sentences. After a while of re-reading them, many of the sample phases started to stick provided a boast to speaking, reading, writing and listening. So the method works. What I did not do was to use a spaced repetition system as advocated on many of the sites today, such as Antimoon or the 10,000 Japanese phrases. Any repetition just happened -- haphazardly. The other thing I did not do was to collect sentences from context either from books or other sources other than what I just happened to remember. I’m still (re) experimenting with the method myself so I can’t definitely what works the best. My impression so far is that if you understand the target languages grammar that leaves you free to collect the general survival phrases, and to collect sentences from content than interests you. After a period of time, you will “collect” the structure and the language's base. John 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7140 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 3 of 27 03 April 2007 at 9:43pm | IP Logged | ||
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This is a slightly different technique that I thought of today, but it does have to do with sentences.
What you have:
Technique: Play the audio and try to say everything the recording says. Read along with the transcript. The transcript gives you an instant translation of any word that you don't understand by hearing it. Benefits: You can cover a lot of words and have comprehensible input. You get work on pronunciation. It's more fun than flash cards. This works best with audio that isn't read too fast and that you know pretty well, but not perfectly. Even if you don't say anything, you are still creating comprehensible input and getting grammar, context, and vocabulary all in one. We've discussed other ways to use an audiobook, but the technique above just came to me today. This "technique" is also applicable to Assimil lessons (look at the translation while you try to shadow the audio). You could also use it for the "illustrative sentences" in FSI. Edited by luke on 15 April 2007 at 8:31am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7038 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 4 of 27 04 April 2007 at 3:58am | IP Logged | ||
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I've been using the sentence method - or rather a sentence method for improving my active Spanish. I'm starting to do the same thing with French and German. For passive comprehension I plan to continue with the methods that have worked for me in the past.
Electronic flashcards are simply a way to learn them and remember them. I see nothing advantageous in not looking up grammatical information in other sources if I want to understand a pattern better. I'm certainly not going to invest a couple of decades in picking it up "naturally" if I can shortcut the process. In addition, I often stick grammatical notes on the answer side of my flashcards to aid in highlighting aspects of a particular construction. The reason - to me at least - is that the point of this approach is not primarily to learn grammar, although it can help with that too, but to accelerate oral production of the target language. This is especially true if you're already reasonably familiar with the grammar of the target language to start with. Andy. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Journeyer Triglot Senior Member United States tristan85.blogspot.c Joined 6803 days ago 946 posts - 1110 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, German Studies: Sign Language | Message 5 of 27 04 April 2007 at 4:03am | IP Logged | ||
Indeed, this has been my experience, as well. But I'm wondering: how does one go about the sentence method? Is it merely copying down sentences out of grammar books, text books, novels, etc, largely without grammar notes, and hopeing, after repeated flashcard usage, that comprehension of how to correct a correct sentence in the passive, or subjunctive, or subordinate, or whatever, will boil to the surface? I'm not saying I'm skeptical of it, but it feels a bit like I'd be flying blind. Maybe I'll just try it with a bit of Japanese as an experiement... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Farley Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 7027 days ago 681 posts - 739 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, GermanB1, French Studies: Spanish | Message 6 of 27 04 April 2007 at 8:22am | IP Logged | ||
I think you just answered the question yourself. If you don’t think it will work it probably won’t. Just to second Andy’s comments above, I’m using the sentence method as an “active wave” activity. I’ve logged a considerable amount of time getting the structure down pat first. The relevance of the learning sentences seems to be getting past the “textbook command” of verb conjugations and structure for a better “conversational command” of the language. After reading a couple of the sites (www.alljapaneseallthetime.com and www.antimoon.com), it seems that the authors of the sentence method have logged some considerable hours themselves on “getting” the basics of the target language. The fact that they amassed cards in the thousands while reading and listening extensively presupposes some kind of basic grammatical study. So to answer you question, I don’t think the method is just about copying down phrases and hoping that after repeated review it will all just magically happen. It seems that there are a few prerequisites before recording a phrase including understanding the grammar and knowing the pronunciation. The question and answer format of the cards is also important, even if the answer is just remembering the context, the rule, or the pronunciation. After that, allow the spaced repetitions to knock it into long term memory. John 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Journeyer Triglot Senior Member United States tristan85.blogspot.c Joined 6803 days ago 946 posts - 1110 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, German Studies: Sign Language | Message 7 of 27 04 April 2007 at 9:00am | IP Logged | ||
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Thank you for that. I do believe it can work, but it was partially the prerequistes that you mentioned I guess I was wondering about. Otherwise I was just wondering why don't I get a phrasebook and a novel and start piecing the language together from sentences in them. There is something that, for 99% of us, would be missing by just that method.
Even children who use "the sentence method" in learning their first language receive help and constant grammatical corrections from their parents until they get it right. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6485 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 8 of 27 04 April 2007 at 11:12am | IP Logged | ||
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I've been using a sentence method to learn Japanese grammar. I finish a chapter of my textbook, then I
1. Type essentially all of the sentences in all of the exercises, Japanese with English translations. 2. Print out the sentences, one column Japanese, one English. I cover the Japanese column, glance at the English and say the sentence in Japanese. 3. After doing 2. for several days, I import the sentences into Supermemo. 4. I make a recording of the sentences, in the English-long pause-Japanese-pause-Japanese-pause format. I play the recording without stopping, saying the sentence in Japanese during the pauses. This method works well for me. I just completed my textbook, which contains all the basic Japanese grammar. It came to about 1400 sentences. 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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