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Too many people selling language courses? | ||
Tags: Business | Language Program | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| translator2 Senior Member United States Joined 6917 days ago 848 posts - 1862 votes  Speaks: English* | Message 25 of 61 17 June 2011 at 2:35pm | IP Logged | ||
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After a year of high school Spanish, I thought I was reasonably fluent. I chatted with everyone I could find in Spanish. (Now I realize that they lowered their speech levels to accommodate me).
Then I went to college and studied Spanish and realized I was not fluent. After a few years, I again thought, now I am a fluent Spanish speaker. After all, I have a degree in Spanish, have taught Spanish and studied Spanish medieval literature. Then I starting working as a translator and received my first business, legal and financial documents to translate (rather than controlled texts from a textbook) and realized that I still had more work to do. After working as translator for a few years, now I am fluent, I told myself. Then I traveled to South America... That is why I have said in the past that you can learn as many languages as you want, but you should aim at advanced proficiency in at least one language so that you will have some kind of perspective as to the whole picture of what is means to learn a language. We are led to believe that because we finished Spanish textbook I, II and III and there is no book IV that we are finished or that we have accomplished some great feat. In reality, there could be a book IV, V, VI, VII - XIII and we have barely begun, but hardly anyone ever gets that far. We finish a Teach Yourself course and tell ourselves that we have mastered most of the language just because there is no TY book II, III, IV - XIII (there could be, but again, hardly anyone is willing to invest that much time). That is why people who have invested years in language study get frustrated when they hear people make claims like "learn to speak German in two months". I'll bet if these people studied a language for a decade, they would have a completely different opinion of language learning. They think they have learned 70-80% of a language in three months, but the reality is that they have probably only learned 10-20%; they just don't know it because they cannot yet see the whole picture. Edited by translator2 on 17 June 2011 at 2:35pm 26 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| starrye Senior Member United States Joined 5092 days ago 172 posts - 280 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese | Message 26 of 61 17 June 2011 at 4:00pm | IP Logged | ||
I agree that many of the teach yourself courses are deceptive in this way, from the point of view of a beginner. It was already mentioned how they tend to sell courses in over sized packaging, or multiple discs/volumes. They often come in 3 levels, and it's easy to trick yourself into thinking that represents Beginner, Intermediate, and Advanced material (even though it's more like 3 levels of Beginner). I thought so myself at first, because the material did seem hard at the time. It seems a similar thing happens with University courses, where students associate first year and second year with levels of fluency. But then again, I think many of these companies are marketing to impulse buyers, so they don't see a need to produce higher level materials. Though, I guess that depends somewhat on the language and how popular it is. I know there is, of course, advanced ESL material out there. Edited by starrye on 17 June 2011 at 4:02pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5007 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 27 of 61 17 June 2011 at 5:16pm | IP Logged | ||
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I fully agree that there is too much of beginner material of bad quality in the stores and on the internet. The publishers just don't expect people would want to really get past the beginner level, at least not enough people to make better materials worthy of publishing (from the economic point of view). But you can get quite good advanced materials for the most popular languages (I've seen some for English, French and Spanish as well, can't speak of other languages).
However I don't think the internet or the huge amount of publishers is to blame. It's the fact, which someone already mentioned, that people don't know what it means to learn a language and what materials they really need. For that reason I believe the amount of language learning blogs can be useful (even though most go wrong when the authors start getting money from it.). I have even started my own blog (which I don't plan to ever gain money from). Why? I don't think my skills are that exceptional but when reading through czech articles about self teaching I noticed a few things. Many people underestimate self-teaching. Many people suffer from the classic mistake "even the expensive language school didn't help me, I'm a lost case". Target language of many people (mostly older ones) is the English, so they are quite dependent on czech sources of information. And compared to authors of some of the articles, I believe I can give much better advice. So, what can we do about the quality materials? We can only ask the publishers for them, perhaps through larger groups of people interested in the language. Not sure whether it would work in reality, anyone has any experience with it? And we can at least warn beginning learners around us against the "miraculous" methods. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Linguisticator1 Newbie United States linguisticator.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4893 days ago 3 posts - 11 votes | Message 28 of 61 01 July 2011 at 1:42am | IP Logged | ||
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Hi All, this is Aaron Ralby of Linguisticator. If I can just weigh in here, I’d like to clear up some confusion about the course I offer.
First of all, I agree with many of you that the internet allows anyone to self-publish and there is a massive proliferation of weak and poorly developed material, not just in terms of language learning, but also in terms of other subjects and topics. At the same time, some of this material is brilliant, and new formats like language-learning podcasts allow for a quantity of audio and visual material that you would never find in a bookstore. That’s a plus. My credentials listed online are true and accurate. I completed my BA summa cum laude and valedictorian at age 19 from UMBC double majoring in English and Modern Languages and Linguistics, concentrating in German. I went on to complete an MPhil with distinction at the University of Cambridge in Anglo-Saxon, Norse and Celtic, then began an MA/PhD at Cornell University in the Medieval Studies program, where I focused on Germanic literature and linguistics (Germanic Philology). I passed my comps after two years, receiving an MA, then defended my dissertation and completed my PhD a year and a half later, receiving my doctorate at the age of 23. While at Cornell, I studied not just Germanic languages, but also Latin, Classical Japanese, and Classical Chinese. Japanese was my first foreign language. Some have commented on my pricing, so please let me explain. First, full funding from scholarships both undergrad and grad means that debt is not the answer ;) The pricing is based on the value and quantity of the material. Individual lessons are priced higher to encourage people to buy the entire course because the real value is in the course as a whole. Saying, “Why pay to learn about verbs?” is losing the forest for the trees. It’s a bit like saying, “Why pay someone to build a house when you can buy lumber at Home Depot?” or even “Why buy bricks when you can dig the clay and make them yourself?” It is not so much about the individual pieces (although I like to think there are some real gems in there) so much as the method as a whole. The course provides a comprehensive method for learning language, and is really the presentation of something I developed for myself specifically to study languages for which there are few or no resources. When you approach a new language, it’s very easy to say to a native speaker, “Teach me your language.” But where does that get you? You need a system, otherwise you bumble about for a long time before things start to come into focus. I’ve bumbled before and it’s frustrating and time consuming. Some linguistics will go a long way, but it’s still not the same as having a clear method for approaching a language. I developed this method for myself, but as more and more people wrote to me about how to learn this language or that, I decided to formulate the method into a course for non-specialists. It provides university-level training in practical linguistics and the condensed experience of years in language learning; it is designed so you only have to take it once. Then you have the knowledge and training at your disposal to approach any language and learn not so much from language resources, but from the language itself, because you know what to look for and how to internalize it. The course essentially provides advanced linguistic training, and you will pay much more to receive that same training through a university or elsewhere. Translator2, you are completely right that there is no substitute for hard work and grammatical study, and that is why my course is not for everyone. The first half is on structure and I emphasize the need to drill the structural paradigms of a language extensively. The fastest way to fluency is through hard work, but hard work applied in the right direction. When working to maximum efficiency, the process does not have to take long or feel burdensome. I’m happy to answer any questions people might have about my background or the course. I stand firmly by its value and hope that it will not be considered among the many scams that are indeed out there. Whatever your opinions may be, if you are on this forum, I wish you the best in learning languages! Edited by Linguisticator1 on 03 July 2011 at 1:32am 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| zekecoma Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5342 days ago 561 posts - 655 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish | Message 29 of 61 03 July 2011 at 4:36am | IP Logged | ||
While you may be all that you say you are. No disrespect to you. But you could say anything on your page or whatever you are selling. As this is the internet and it's all about anonymity. It makes me look at you suspiciously. In my eyes, I see your course like all those other web pages that claim to learn a language in 2 months, how to pick up girls, how to make love better, etc but for languages (similarities). I would rather buy a reputable course from well written reviews and sources I can trust, simply because they have used it and are where they are now. While it is similar to computer programmer, it takes 10 years to learn a programming language. It can be applied to spoken cultural languages also. While your heart maybe in the right position. I just look at the prices like those of the other sites. Just a quick way to grab money and not really deliver on what you say your courses can do. Just like Rosetta Stone "claims". It's just I can buy Assimil New French with Ease, Using French, Business French and buy a French dictionary and pay less than your courses. While it might not give me the experience of a native, but it would give me a lot of knowledge of everyday French. But like I said before, this isn't a slap across your face or anything to disgrace you, as I simply do not know you to judge you. I'm just giving my opinion. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Kugel Senior Member United States Joined 6536 days ago 497 posts - 555 votes Speaks: English* | Message 30 of 61 05 July 2011 at 12:07am | IP Logged | ||
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Most of us live in populated areas where access to government funded universities is widely available. This is the place to go to satisfy your linguistic curiosity. It's either that or drop everything and move to your target language country. Anything else is just a waste of time; this includes 99 percent of the material out there on the forums and programs like Assimil, FSI, podcasts,...etc.
3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 5128 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 31 of 61 05 July 2011 at 3:11am | IP Logged | ||
I think it's sort of a shame that the only place you believe you can find valuable educational materials in is a university. You're missing out on an awful lot. I'm not discounting universities at all - I've benefited from two myself. But that's not all there is either. R. == 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Kugel Senior Member United States Joined 6536 days ago 497 posts - 555 votes Speaks: English* | Message 32 of 61 05 July 2011 at 3:45am | IP Logged | ||
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It's one of the few places to learn foreign languages with the exception of total immersion because universities are by its nature, at least in the language departments, made up of rich and diverse linguistic communities if it's a language department done right. Over time I've grown to dislike self-study programs, particularly language self-study programs.
Naturally, there are organizations outside of universities, but my point is that self-study, especially so in languages, is inefficient and might not help at all. The same could be said about language programs at universities, but it's likely to be the students' fault due to there being many opportunities outside of the classroom. There also seems to be an unusual high degree of profit motive in the language learning community. I don't see such things in the sciences, particularly the Earth Sciences and Astronomy. At most there is a 50 dollar annual membership. It's so crass to charge hundreds of dollars to study a language, and it's not even in person to person. I thought that the humanities was a field made up of refined people. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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