|
 |
Does Spanish have a neuter gender | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5784 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 33 of 41 20 August 2012 at 1:53am | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
@mrwarper: one thing I'm left a little unsure of- is the "lo" in "lo+adjective"
constructions an article or a pronoun. If (as I now think and contrary to what I thought above) it is an article, then why is it not used with infinitives. What I mean is if there is a neuter article available, then why is the masculine article used? If we leave aside the possibility that infinitives are somehow masculine when used as a noun (which on a gut level I think quite unlikely, though I don't honestly know any good reason why not), then there must be a reason why it's use is so much more restricted than other articles, right? Edited by Random review on 20 August 2012 at 1:58am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5454 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 34 of 41 20 August 2012 at 2:23am | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
"Lo" in "lo + adjective" is an article.
3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5227 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 35 of 41 23 August 2012 at 5:56pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
Sorry 'bout the delay.
A quick reminder: a pronoun is anything that is used instead of a noun, be it a dedicated word (personal pronouns) or one that can perform other functions (f.e. demonstratives such as 'this' or 'that' can be used instead of 'it', etc). If a word is complementing another word but not substituting a noun, it's not a pronoun. 'Lo' is not used with infinitives because they're masculine, a possibility you can't leave aside because it's just the way it is. Not very logical if you ask me, but not more illogical than the corresponding actions (-ción) being feminine (at least AFAICT these things are consistent) either, or, in general, using noun genders for anything other than sex (you know what I mean :) and inventing an extra 'neutral' one, etc. Remember: logic often comes into play WAY after everything else in the historical development of any language. Now, is the Spanish 'neutral' gender just underdeveloped or is it vestigial? Thank God I'm no philologist so I can't tell... Edited by mrwarper on 23 August 2012 at 5:56pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Quique Diglot Senior Member Spain cronopios.net/Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4683 days ago 183 posts - 313 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: French, German | Message 36 of 41 23 August 2012 at 6:56pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
http://www.fundeu.es/noticias-articulos-la-esquina-del-idiom a-genero-neutro-6479.html : «El que los sustantivos no tengan género neutro y el que ningún adjetivo posea formas particulares para concordar de esta manera con los pronombres, son factores que llevan a pensar que el neutro no es propiamente un tercer género del español, equiparable a los otros dos, sino más bien el exponente de una clase gramatical de palabras que designan ciertas nociones abstractas»¹. ¹ Real Academia Española y la Asociación de Academias de la Lengua Española. (2001). Nueva gramática de la lengua española, tomo Morfología y Sintaxis I, p. 82. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5784 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 37 of 41 24 August 2012 at 3:00am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yes, of course you and tractor are right. I just hoped it was a pronoun because it would have explained some other things very neatly.
Yes, I think you are right. My main problem with infinitives being masculine was that they are neuter in German; but, of course, German structures have nothing to do with Spanish. As you point out (if I understood you correctly), the fact that infinitives are masculine is no more logical or illogical than the fact that, say, "plato" is. My second problem was why nominalisation gives a masculine form with verbs and a "neuter" form* with adjectives. Again I have to admit that there's no logical reason why not, though. Interesting! My third (and altogether rather sillier) "problem" was that you can say things like "lo importante es amar" and if "lo importante is neuter then why not "amar". Of course, I was being a bit daft, "amar" here is a verb acting as a noun, not an adjective (which would have to agree) and such sentences with two nouns of different gender connected by a copula are (of course) perfectly normal (e.g. "este desayuno es una mierda"). You may wonder how I managed to tie myself up in knots like that (after all, I really ought to know an article when I see one!), but I'm struggling to find an intuitive way of looking at nominalisation in Spanish and as you can see I changed my mind about things several times on this thread (on one occasion even in the same post). It's been a really interesting and useful thread IMO, at least for me. * I used scare quotes because calling it a neuter noun would be controversial on this thread. It does look that way to me because my understanding is that nominalisation involves using other parts of speech as a noun; and I still think that the structure "lo + adjective" has to be neuter because of the way it agrees with demonstrative pronouns (compare esto es lo importante with este es el problema). But I accept that the RAE has stated (in the quotes above) that there are no neuter nouns in Spanish, so I guess there's something I still don't understand. Could it be that the entire structure "lo + adjective" acts as a pronoun rather than a noun? So far it's the only explanation I can think of.
2nd edit: change of plan. I looked like a pompous twit (and possibly a bit rude), so I've deleted my reply to this quote and also my first edit. I'll rewrite the reply in English tomorrow as I'm too tired to do it all again right now. Edited by Random review on 24 August 2012 at 4:55am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5454 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 38 of 41 24 August 2012 at 8:26am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Is an adjective used as a noun still an adjective or is it a noun? Is a verb used as a noun still a verb or is it a noun? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5784 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 39 of 41 24 August 2012 at 9:54pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
I don't know the answer, but I want to say that if it is occupying a noun slot in a
sentence then I'm inclined to think it's a noun (shrug). If it looks like a dog and barks like a dog.... On the other hand you won't find infinitives or adjectives listed as nouns in the dictionary (and quite rightly not!), so looked at this way it's still a verb/adjective. Bu**$red if I know, but I certainly wouldn't mind seeing this cleared up! What do you think, tractor? Edited by Random review on 24 August 2012 at 10:02pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5454 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 40 of 41 25 August 2012 at 8:02am | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
I think those questions could be discussed ad infinitum. As you point out, there are arguments for both yes and no.
3 persons have voted this message useful |
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
