Arabic - MSA or a dialect? (Specific Languages) Language Learning Forum

Arabic - MSA or a dialect?
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cmmah Diglot Groupie Ireland Joined 4532 days ago 52 posts - 110 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Irish	Message 1 of 4 26 August 2012 at 10:43pm \| IP Logged
	I have never studied, nor do I have any short term plans to study Arabic, but thought this would be an interesting question When learning Arabic, do you think it would be best to learn MSA or a dialect? From my limited knowledge of Arabic, I know that MSA is universally understood throughout the Arab world, and used in news, etc, but sounds very strange and unnatural in everyday speech. A dialect sounds more natural, but will not be universally understood. When learning Arabic, which is best? To learn MSA and be universally understood, but weird-sounding? Or a dialect, and sound natural, but not be universally understood? 1 person has voted this message useful
Jappy58 Bilingual Super Polyglot Senior Member United States Joined 4639 days ago 200 posts - 413 votes Speaks: Spanish, Guarani, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Maghribi), Arabic (Written), French, English, Persian, Quechua, Portuguese Studies: Modern Hebrew	Message 2 of 4 27 August 2012 at 12:31am \| IP Logged
	It depends on what your goals are. If you are planning to travel to an Arabic-speaking country in a few weeks, or plan on working in an Arab community, then it is certainly most useful to focus on the dialect being used in that specific country or area. Dialect first is in general a great path to take, IF you'll have excellent access and exposure to the dialect. First off, I'd like to make it clear that MSA is not necessarily understood by 100% of Arabs - most Arabs have a solid understanding of MSA is the better statement of the two. That being said, I usually recommend learning MSA first, for a variety of reasons. Anyways, one reason I recommend MSA first is because there are far more (reliable) resources that'll get you to a solid level in MSA, whereas this is unfortunately not true for most dialects. Second off, the truth is that MSA and the various dialects (even Moroccan Arabic) have more similarities with one another than differences. If you have at least a mid-to-high intermediate knowledge of MSA, learning the various dialects becomes very accessible - you notice the overwhelming similarities more immediately and see how the dialects "merge" together. Contrary to what some will have you believe, it is not just the "common roots" that dialects and MSA share, but a large part of the Arabic tree's trunk as well. In addition, it is IMO important to be literate in the language one is studying. Even if you're not interested in Arabic literature, poetry, or newspapers, it helps to know how the written language functions. Yes, MSA sounds rather stilted in everyday contexts, but Arabs generally respect any effort to learn their language, and you can always learn the basic phrases of a dialect to break the ice in a less "unnatural" manner. The transition from MSA to your first dialect will most likely be daunting in the initial stages. The question words will likely change, and in terms of everday vocabulary, dialects prefer one term over another, and sometimes these are loan words. Don't let it push you down, however. However, learning Arabic with dialect first is certainly possible - just don't be surprised if you get more put off by the basic differences when going from dialect to dialect or MSA. In general, dialects simplify the grammar of MSA, and in some areas are more flexible than MSA - and without proper resources to understand these "flexible" areas, it can be more confusing than mastering the systematic rules of MSA. I'd like to point out to you that most Arabic dialects are actually mutually intelligible (not just for media exposure, but linguistically as well). If you learn Egyptian, for example, other dialects such as Hijazi and Sudanese are extremely accessible (I know this from experience). Levantine also becomes much easier with knowledge of this dialect. In general, most Middle Eastern (Mashriqi dialects: Egyptian, Sudanese, Hijazi, Iraqi, Najdi, Gulf, etc.) are mutually intelligible with one another. Yes, there are notable differences between Egyptian, Levantine, and Iraqi, but the differences are not so vast as some people may have you believe. Maghrebi Arabic is another story. To Middle Easterners, Moroccan and Algerian display very limited mutual intelligibility, mostly for phonological reasons, but also because of a unique presence of Berber loan words that don't really exist in any other dialects. That being said, Moroccan is still very useful for being understood (and understanding) other Maghrebi dialects such as Algerian and Tunisian. Libyan is unique - it is intelligible with most other Maghrebi dialects, but it also has plenty in common with Middle Eastern dialects. If you choose to learn a dialect first, however, I'd recommend starting with Egyptian or Levantine if you don't have a preference for any other dialects. For the most part, resources in these two dialect families are becoming more available and reliable. Also, both varieties are widley understood across the Arab world due to their presnce in popular culture such as films and music. Take note, however, that some of the resources require a basic knowledge of MSA first (another reason why I usually recommend MSA first). EDIT: I'd also like to mention that MSA and dialects are not separate linguistic fields - they work like a spectrum or continuum. In newscasts, 100% MSA isn't necessarily used, and in informal contexts, MSA will often mix with dialect as well. In all, they mix with each other in many ways. Take this in mind with the fact that the vast majority of dialect vocabulary is still Arabic, and you'll be surprised (positively surprised). I'm actually in the process of creating a thread for Arabic resources right now. Whatever path you choose, I'm willing to suggest some solid resources. Edited by Jappy58 on 27 August 2012 at 12:40am 19 persons have voted this message useful
patuco Diglot Moderator Gibraltar Joined 7016 days ago 3795 posts - 4268 votes Speaks: Spanish, English* Personal Language Map	Message 3 of 4 27 August 2012 at 12:17pm \| IP Logged
	Not much else to add to the excellent post above, except to suggest that you check out this page and look at the section titled "Dialects aren't such a big deal". Edited by patuco on 27 August 2012 at 12:18pm 2 persons have voted this message useful
Jappy58 Bilingual Super Polyglot Senior Member United States Joined 4639 days ago 200 posts - 413 votes Speaks: Spanish, Guarani, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Maghribi), Arabic (Written), French, English, Persian, Quechua, Portuguese Studies: Modern Hebrew	Message 4 of 4 01 September 2012 at 1:09am \| IP Logged
	I agree with Mezzofanti's general advice regarding Arabic and the dialects. That article is certainly spot on. I'd like to restate that it does not matter which dialect you choose to study first. Choose the one that interests you the most. Many people may argue that Moroccan and other Maghrebi dialects are "useless" because Arabs in the Middle East won't understand it easily, but there's a flaw to this argument. Most Maghrebi dialects are mutually intelligible with one another, and the dialect family in general is spoken by approximately 50 million people if one is basing their decision on pure numbers. That being said, Egyptian and Levantine are certainly the best choices if one doesn't have a preference, as I've stated earlier. With learning Egyptian, you'll find Sudanese and Hijazi quite intelligible without even studying them, while Levantine will be very accessible as well. 2 persons have voted this message useful

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cmmah Diglot Groupie Ireland Joined 4532 days ago 52 posts - 110 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Irish	Message 1 of 4 26 August 2012 at 10:43pm \| IP Logged
	I have never studied, nor do I have any short term plans to study Arabic, but thought this would be an interesting question When learning Arabic, do you think it would be best to learn MSA or a dialect? From my limited knowledge of Arabic, I know that MSA is universally understood throughout the Arab world, and used in news, etc, but sounds very strange and unnatural in everyday speech. A dialect sounds more natural, but will not be universally understood. When learning Arabic, which is best? To learn MSA and be universally understood, but weird-sounding? Or a dialect, and sound natural, but not be universally understood? 1 person has voted this message useful
Jappy58 Bilingual Super Polyglot Senior Member United States Joined 4639 days ago 200 posts - 413 votes Speaks: Spanish, Guarani, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Maghribi), Arabic (Written), French, English, Persian, Quechua, Portuguese Studies: Modern Hebrew	Message 2 of 4 27 August 2012 at 12:31am \| IP Logged
	It depends on what your goals are. If you are planning to travel to an Arabic-speaking country in a few weeks, or plan on working in an Arab community, then it is certainly most useful to focus on the dialect being used in that specific country or area. Dialect first is in general a great path to take, IF you'll have excellent access and exposure to the dialect. First off, I'd like to make it clear that MSA is not necessarily understood by 100% of Arabs - most Arabs have a solid understanding of MSA is the better statement of the two. That being said, I usually recommend learning MSA first, for a variety of reasons. Anyways, one reason I recommend MSA first is because there are far more (reliable) resources that'll get you to a solid level in MSA, whereas this is unfortunately not true for most dialects. Second off, the truth is that MSA and the various dialects (even Moroccan Arabic) have more similarities with one another than differences. If you have at least a mid-to-high intermediate knowledge of MSA, learning the various dialects becomes very accessible - you notice the overwhelming similarities more immediately and see how the dialects "merge" together. Contrary to what some will have you believe, it is not just the "common roots" that dialects and MSA share, but a large part of the Arabic tree's trunk as well. In addition, it is IMO important to be literate in the language one is studying. Even if you're not interested in Arabic literature, poetry, or newspapers, it helps to know how the written language functions. Yes, MSA sounds rather stilted in everyday contexts, but Arabs generally respect any effort to learn their language, and you can always learn the basic phrases of a dialect to break the ice in a less "unnatural" manner. The transition from MSA to your first dialect will most likely be daunting in the initial stages. The question words will likely change, and in terms of everday vocabulary, dialects prefer one term over another, and sometimes these are loan words. Don't let it push you down, however. However, learning Arabic with dialect first is certainly possible - just don't be surprised if you get more put off by the basic differences when going from dialect to dialect or MSA. In general, dialects simplify the grammar of MSA, and in some areas are more flexible than MSA - and without proper resources to understand these "flexible" areas, it can be more confusing than mastering the systematic rules of MSA. I'd like to point out to you that most Arabic dialects are actually mutually intelligible (not just for media exposure, but linguistically as well). If you learn Egyptian, for example, other dialects such as Hijazi and Sudanese are extremely accessible (I know this from experience). Levantine also becomes much easier with knowledge of this dialect. In general, most Middle Eastern (Mashriqi dialects: Egyptian, Sudanese, Hijazi, Iraqi, Najdi, Gulf, etc.) are mutually intelligible with one another. Yes, there are notable differences between Egyptian, Levantine, and Iraqi, but the differences are not so vast as some people may have you believe. Maghrebi Arabic is another story. To Middle Easterners, Moroccan and Algerian display very limited mutual intelligibility, mostly for phonological reasons, but also because of a unique presence of Berber loan words that don't really exist in any other dialects. That being said, Moroccan is still very useful for being understood (and understanding) other Maghrebi dialects such as Algerian and Tunisian. Libyan is unique - it is intelligible with most other Maghrebi dialects, but it also has plenty in common with Middle Eastern dialects. If you choose to learn a dialect first, however, I'd recommend starting with Egyptian or Levantine if you don't have a preference for any other dialects. For the most part, resources in these two dialect families are becoming more available and reliable. Also, both varieties are widley understood across the Arab world due to their presnce in popular culture such as films and music. Take note, however, that some of the resources require a basic knowledge of MSA first (another reason why I usually recommend MSA first). EDIT: I'd also like to mention that MSA and dialects are not separate linguistic fields - they work like a spectrum or continuum. In newscasts, 100% MSA isn't necessarily used, and in informal contexts, MSA will often mix with dialect as well. In all, they mix with each other in many ways. Take this in mind with the fact that the vast majority of dialect vocabulary is still Arabic, and you'll be surprised (positively surprised). I'm actually in the process of creating a thread for Arabic resources right now. Whatever path you choose, I'm willing to suggest some solid resources. Edited by Jappy58 on 27 August 2012 at 12:40am 19 persons have voted this message useful
patuco Diglot Moderator Gibraltar Joined 7016 days ago 3795 posts - 4268 votes Speaks: Spanish, English* Personal Language Map	Message 3 of 4 27 August 2012 at 12:17pm \| IP Logged
	Not much else to add to the excellent post above, except to suggest that you check out this page and look at the section titled "Dialects aren't such a big deal". Edited by patuco on 27 August 2012 at 12:18pm 2 persons have voted this message useful
Jappy58 Bilingual Super Polyglot Senior Member United States Joined 4639 days ago 200 posts - 413 votes Speaks: Spanish, Guarani, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Maghribi), Arabic (Written), French, English, Persian, Quechua, Portuguese Studies: Modern Hebrew	Message 4 of 4 01 September 2012 at 1:09am \| IP Logged
	I agree with Mezzofanti's general advice regarding Arabic and the dialects. That article is certainly spot on. I'd like to restate that it does not matter which dialect you choose to study first. Choose the one that interests you the most. Many people may argue that Moroccan and other Maghrebi dialects are "useless" because Arabs in the Middle East won't understand it easily, but there's a flaw to this argument. Most Maghrebi dialects are mutually intelligible with one another, and the dialect family in general is spoken by approximately 50 million people if one is basing their decision on pure numbers. That being said, Egyptian and Levantine are certainly the best choices if one doesn't have a preference, as I've stated earlier. With learning Egyptian, you'll find Sudanese and Hijazi quite intelligible without even studying them, while Levantine will be very accessible as well. 2 persons have voted this message useful